tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2761684730989137546.post3286813024781115514..comments2024-03-28T07:50:06.102-04:00Comments on Mike Norman Economics: Rodger Mitchell — Why MMT frustrates the hell out of memike normanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03296006882513340747noreply@blogger.comBlogger46125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2761684730989137546.post-87253551119657166282012-12-26T16:14:47.375-05:002012-12-26T16:14:47.375-05:00"How's this for simple, short, succinct, ...<i>"How's this for simple, short, succinct, and proven possible:<br />"QE Banks $200 trillion at 2% for 36 years"<br />Raise revenue of $11 trillion per year from that "somewhere else"."</i> - justaluckyfool<br /><br />Question, where will the banks get the $11T to pay the interest?paul melihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04604543110795683837noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2761684730989137546.post-89688915635316269662012-12-26T12:31:14.504-05:002012-12-26T12:31:14.504-05:00Tell me, please, How is "QE is "Most of...Tell me, please, How is "QE is "Most of the solutions offered are too utopian or just impractical."<br />A method proven by Ben Bernanke that allows the Feds to purchase an unlimited amount of assets while at the same time not increasing "deficit spending ? <br />We need only to change the beneficiary of QE, i.e., for the people instead of the banks.<br />Sure QE $200 trillion for the banks <br />to make loans for the people at 2% for 36 years would not "be too utopian or just impactical" and would receive 100% support for surely the banks would find a way to use %11 trillion a year "for their owners own personal, selfish purposes.<br /><br />Once again I ask, "Please put me to rest, show me where my opinion<br />of Black, Hudson, Soddy and others<br />is wrong.<br />The banks have proven that they are NOT trustworthy.<br />"The People" may not be either, but<br />I would rather be screwed by the people than have the banks continue unabated.<br />Plus , no matter what; we can always change. <br />justaluckyfool (Google Account)justaluckyfoolhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13106732881109899340noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2761684730989137546.post-40316150307380212272012-12-26T12:09:40.769-05:002012-12-26T12:09:40.769-05:00RMM, "Obama says, "You have to live with...RMM, "Obama says, "You have to live within your means; so should your government." Short. Succinct. Believable.<br /><br />What do you say to top that? <br />Obama says,<br />"You can’t raise revenues by lowering taxes unless you get the money from somewhere else.”<br />So why aren't you doing just that, "raising revenue somewhere else?"<br />Is it because it is easier to betray "the people" rather than<br />"financial group"?<br />How's this for simple, short, succinct, and proven possible:<br />"QE Banks $200 trillion at 2% for 36 years"<br />Raise revenue of $11 trillion per year from that "somewhere else".<br /><br />And please, Rodge, Wray, Black, Hudson, Mosler, show me that it is not a proven method of taxation.<br />Or call for Ben Bernanke (not a banker)to be nominated for the Noble Prize in Economic Sciences<br />and maybe,perhaps Obama's presidency rated along side that of Lincoln. Surely as Lincoln freed the slaves, Obama could free the people from poverty and servitude.<br />13th Amendent<br />"Section 1. Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude..., shall exist within the United States..." justaluckyfoolhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13106732881109899340noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2761684730989137546.post-50168059759398427212012-12-26T11:38:21.138-05:002012-12-26T11:38:21.138-05:00What a fantastic disclosure: "Disclosure: I&#...What a fantastic disclosure: "Disclosure: I'm fully aware of the differences between authoritarian 20th century Communism and pro-democratic 21st century MMT. This example is only for historical illustration, a sometimes risky enterprise in the country that Gore Vidal once called the U.S. of Amnesia :) "<br />Perhaps an "event may occur sooner than one might think.<br />Set the stage:<br />"Call for the Impeachment of Obama If he selects "The number one bankster( Demon) for Sect of Treas. Proof of his betrayal of the "people".justaluckyfoolhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13106732881109899340noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2761684730989137546.post-56812727138441458242012-12-26T11:29:50.146-05:002012-12-26T11:29:50.146-05:00The way to resolve the issue is to "arm"...The way to resolve the issue is to "arm" activists and progressives in general with MMT so they discontinue shooting themselves in the foot with unworkable solutions that would have the opposite effect of what they advocate.<br /><br />There's plenty of outrage out there just waiting to be harnessed. They need to read 7DIF for starters. A lot of them are already reading Bill Black and Michael Hudson, and probably some are reading Steve Keen, too.Tom Hickeyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08454222098667643650noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2761684730989137546.post-69544112831163206422012-12-26T09:17:10.939-05:002012-12-26T09:17:10.939-05:00For the record, i tend to agree with Rodgers argum...For the record, i tend to agree with Rodgers arguments, very little disagreement actually.<br /><br />I appreciate independent thinking (a lot) in a world where there is constant pressure for us all to think alike.<br /><br />I just couldn't see the reason for singling out MMT as causing so much frustration…frustration caused by MMT'ers not being equally as good at marketing.<br /><br />We just have to keep looking for the "sweet spot". Try something and if it doesn't work try something else.paul melihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04604543110795683837noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2761684730989137546.post-21440589384325704172012-12-25T22:31:48.009-05:002012-12-25T22:31:48.009-05:00The double standard of justice can also be used to...The double standard of justice can also be used to tap growing rage over unfairness. You know, what the privilege call "class warfare." They are free to practice it but no one else it.Tom Hickeyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08454222098667643650noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2761684730989137546.post-35000125716203027782012-12-25T22:30:01.433-05:002012-12-25T22:30:01.433-05:00The messaging also needs to take into account cogn...The messaging also needs to take into account cognitive biases like loss aversion.<br /><br /><a href="http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-12-24/people-hate-losses-and-that-affects-u-s-budget-talks.html" rel="nofollow">People Hate Losses and That Affects U.S. Budget Talks By Cass R. Sunstein</a>Tom Hickeyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08454222098667643650noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2761684730989137546.post-43889990978554296852012-12-25T22:26:57.545-05:002012-12-25T22:26:57.545-05:00The crimes you allege are very serious.... Suggest...<i>The crimes you allege are very serious.... Suggest you find a seated federal Grand Jury and provide testimony....</i><br /><br />Not easy when there is a double standard of justice and the Obama administration has openly signaled that the privilege will not prosecuted for crimes committed.Tom Hickeyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08454222098667643650noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2761684730989137546.post-41000758062880269232012-12-25T22:23:47.146-05:002012-12-25T22:23:47.146-05:00Rodger,
The crimes you allege are very serious......Rodger,<br /><br />The crimes you allege are very serious.... Suggest you find a seated federal Grand Jury and provide testimony....<br /><br />In the meantime I will continue to simply point out how unqualified and stupid these people are.... With plenty of examples and cognitive science...<br /><br />One of us is right.<br /><br />I don't see any harm in a two pronged approach.... RspMatt Frankohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11978352335097260145noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2761684730989137546.post-8989955322531746182012-12-25T20:24:17.054-05:002012-12-25T20:24:17.054-05:00For example, one of the most powerful and successf...For example, one of the most powerful and successful messages of conservative neoliberals is "small government, low taxes, strong military, and traditional values." This has been tested to work. It is also a coded message that unpacks as a whole neo-fascistic ideology.<br /><br />Advertisers know that testing reveals that the most powerful single word by far is "free." Again, neoliberalism exploits this in "free markets, free trade, and free capital flows." Again, these are coded words that are the façade for neoliberal exploitation of workers worldwide.<br /><br />At the same time, anything that does not fit the paradigm is demonized, e.g., "socialism," or "communism" or marginalized, e.g., "liberal," and "Keynesianism."<br /><br />Neoliberalism has been carefully crafted and the way to oppose it not by repeating its framing but by creating an opposite framing and a message that carries it powerfully. <br /><br />So far that is non-existent, and this is not limited to MMT. Without it, the opposition is fighting an uphill battle with neoliberals rolling boulders down on them.<br /><br />I do think it is possible to take some of those words back from them, though, like "free." They have spun the terms into an opposite meaning, and there is no reason to concede this to them.Tom Hickeyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08454222098667643650noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2761684730989137546.post-29760514696920504962012-12-25T19:08:48.313-05:002012-12-25T19:08:48.313-05:00Rodger, the way the Right has been successful in f...Rodger, the way the Right has been successful in framing the debate is testing their messaging empirically. I think we need to do that to see what people actually respond to.<br /><br />The problem is that neoliberals have convinced people that unless the deficit is cut, the economy will shrink and jobs will be lost. Polling shows that people have fallen for this based on the govt-as-big-household analogy, which seem intuitive to them. This means that the response to this has be intuitive, too.<br /><br />Only testing will tell what messaging is stronger. Tom Hickeyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08454222098667643650noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2761684730989137546.post-91400996765056780012012-12-25T19:03:27.003-05:002012-12-25T19:03:27.003-05:00Good to hear, José. The US is still stuck on "...Good to hear, José. The US is still stuck on "the old religion" of neoliberalism and there are no serious contenders now that "liberal" and "Keynesian" have been turned into pejorative terms. Neoliberals have pretty successfully tarred anything but a neoliberal stance as "socialism," "communism," and "Keynesianism," as meaning essentially the same thing. As a result, even the people in politics that do know about MMT, as I am sure Alan Grayson, does for instance, are not talking about it., even though hei is otherwise outspoken. Certainly Sen. Bernie Sanders staff knows about it, judging from the economic advisors he appointed. As Warren reports in 7DIF, MMT is not politically correct to mention in political circles. Bonkers.Tom Hickeyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08454222098667643650noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2761684730989137546.post-17076593486611570892012-12-25T18:55:55.483-05:002012-12-25T18:55:55.483-05:00Tom,
How about:
"Cutting the deficit is how...Tom,<br /><br />How about:<br /><br />"Cutting the deficit is how the government takes dollars from the middle class and gives them to the rich."<br /><br />RodgRodger Malcolm Mitchellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13541817477277188031noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2761684730989137546.post-60160192850222193752012-12-25T18:22:30.212-05:002012-12-25T18:22:30.212-05:00What is not out there yet is MMT as an economic so...<i>What is not out there yet is MMT as an economic solution</i><br /><br />I wouldn't be so pessimistic at least in what concerns the non Anglo American worrld.<br /><br />For instance, I follow regularly blogs and tweets in Portuguese. And I often see young MPs - influential ones - sending their followers to stories published by a certain school in Kansas City :)Jose Guilhermehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00313496015841693181noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2761684730989137546.post-17730520522363282502012-12-25T18:11:12.028-05:002012-12-25T18:11:12.028-05:00Rodger, I have been saying for a long time, "...Rodger, I have been saying for a long time, "It's the framing, stupid," Now Randy is saying it, too.<br /><br />You are right in this. We need to craft "elevator speeches" that get the main points across clearly and trenchantly in a way that not only gets the points across simply enough for anyone to understand but also fires people up and motivates them to action.<br /><br /> I don't see it as increasing the amplitude as much as improving the messaging. The theory and evidence are there but that's not what is going to grab most people, While it is necessary, it's not what you lead with.Tom Hickeyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08454222098667643650noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2761684730989137546.post-2961359993350220062012-12-25T18:05:58.348-05:002012-12-25T18:05:58.348-05:00Chomsky is certainly (and deservedly) famous but h...<i>Chomsky is certainly (and deservedly) famous but he hasn't exactly been a big success in terms of translating his ideas into real political influence.</i><br /><br />Revolutionary academics like Noam Chomsky and Howard Zinn in the US have been sowing the anti-neoliberal seeds in the "next generation" for several generations. There have been plenty in the UK and Europe, too.<br /><br />There are a lot of revolutionaries out there now as a result. All it will take is a catalyst to ignite the fire of change.<br /><br />What is not out there yet is MMT as an economic solution. As a result a lot of people are diagnosing the problem correctly but have been unable to come up with satisfactory practical solutions that would be scalable economically. Most of the solutions offered are too utopian or just impractical.Tom Hickeyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08454222098667643650noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2761684730989137546.post-24694201519812415962012-12-25T17:57:28.675-05:002012-12-25T17:57:28.675-05:00Paul, perhaps as you say, everyone is saying the s...Paul, perhaps as you say, everyone is saying the same sort of thing. My complaint is they are taking too long to say it.<br /><br />Most MMT blogs and articles read like economic text books -- to be read by fellow economists and not understood by the common person.<br /><br />MMT professors make brilliant arguments, and you'll realize it if you get through the first inevitable 2,000 words.<br /><br />The public wants the shorthand version. Come up with a simple paragraph that we all can use, again and again and again, and we'll make progress.<br /><br />That's called marketing, and it is the way the public's mind is changed. My complaint is that MMT doesn't seem to comprehend the importance of repetition of a single, simple theme.<br /><br />It's what I do on my blog, but then I get hit with, "Oh, we're all saying that, and you're doing so well. So there!" <br /><br />Obama says, "You have to live within your means; so should your government." Short. Succinct. Believable.<br /><br />What do you say to top that?Rodger Malcolm Mitchellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13541817477277188031noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2761684730989137546.post-15416869859952580752012-12-25T17:43:42.710-05:002012-12-25T17:43:42.710-05:00Of course, the most famous academic revolutionary ...<i>Of course, the most famous academic revolutionary over the past decades has been Noam Chomsky. I guess we need some MMT revolutionaries</i><br /><br />Chomsky is certainly (and deservedly) famous but he hasn't exactly been a big success in terms of translating his ideas into real political influence.<br /><br />I'd say what MMT must rely on in order to gain relevance won't be as much the propaganda efforts of its proponents - that have been quite impressive IMO, considering how a handful of people have managed to put it on the map in so short a period, in a result that eluded the capacities of the PK school for decades - but rather political developments that may well take place in the near future but are still, for the moment, mere known unknowns.<br /><br />Remember that story about Lenin talking to young followers in Switzerland during WWI and explaining to them that revolutionaries would only be able to see the success of their efforts in the next generation or so?<br /><br />A few months later, thanks to a known unknown (a revolution in Petrograd) he was on his way to power.<br /><br />Today, when you look at the situation in Europe - particularly in its southern fringe - with austerity policies slowly strangling the livelihoods of tens of millions of people you may well suspect that some event out of the ordinary might take place in the near future. Some country unexpectedly rebelling against the diktats of the EU and deciding to adopt alternative economic strategies whether "Europe" likes it or not.<br /><br />There might be the place where MMT will finally become relevant, in practical and therefore poltical terms.<br /><br />The main task of MMTers should thus be to get ready for such an event - just like Lenin was ready to take advantage of that unforeseeable yet likely development in 1917 Petrograd.<br /><br /><i>Disclosure: I'm fully aware of the differences between authoritarian 20th century Communism and pro-democratic 21st century MMT. This example is only for historical illustration, a sometimes risky enterprise in the country that Gore Vidal once called the U.S. of Amnesia :)</i>Jose Guilhermehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00313496015841693181noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2761684730989137546.post-21874524878859190512012-12-25T15:00:39.124-05:002012-12-25T15:00:39.124-05:00Which one of you guys is going to be the first to ...Which one of you guys is going to be the first to stick their head out the window and say, "I'm mad as hell and I'm not going to take it anymore"? <br /><br />Merry Christmas! Tomorrow, go get'em!Chewituphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05912166063718393059noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2761684730989137546.post-60317691113951426032012-12-25T12:35:18.534-05:002012-12-25T12:35:18.534-05:00Tom,
Bill Mitchell isn't saying anything diff...Tom,<br /><br />Bill Mitchell isn't saying anything different than we say here routinely in different ways every day, nor is Rodgers approach much different.<br /><br />We all know this is what has to happen. We're friggin' hobbyists for Pete's sake. I ain't no Noam Chomsky (but I did spend the night in a Holiday Inn Express once).<br /><br />When we disagree with MR's framing or PK framing or whoever we are being mean and nasty, encouraged to "play nice". MMT'ers have a reputation at economics blogs as being unhinged, fanatical. Then, when we show civility, we are accused of not being nasty enough. The community is schizophrenic, there's no other answer.<br /><br />Again we're picking out semantic differences to disagree on, it's like we don't like the way the other guy frames something (you know…not the way we'd say it) so we reframe it and in the end it comes out pretty much the same anyway but we like it better because we said it.<br /><br />Most of the discussion in this thread is over distinctions without a difference. If one reads the comments in this thread it becomes apparent that we are all basically saying the same things in different ways, while disagreeing vehemently.<br /><br />Gimme a break. Let's go enjoy the holiday.paul melihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04604543110795683837noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2761684730989137546.post-62538404033884860852012-12-25T12:31:35.219-05:002012-12-25T12:31:35.219-05:00"There are a lot of potential allies out ther..."There are a lot of potential allies out there that just don't know it yet. These are the activists that most MMT'ers will never become.."<br />MMTers need a "David Axelrod, one that can see the ways and means to achieve a desired result."<br />He wanted to make a president and showed the world that in America a <br />single county could control the vote of the entire state.<br />Perhaps someone to help William Black and Michael Hudson, who have the ear of OWS, to convince them they must unite as ONE VOICE and have as a mandate:<br />""“We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity,..."<br />"WE THE PEOPLE SHALL TAKE BACK THIS RESPONSIBILITY BY THE PEOPLE, OF THE PEOPLE, FOR THE PEOPLE."<br />So help us God. <br /><br />justaluckyfoolhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13106732881109899340noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2761684730989137546.post-19939333652928200692012-12-25T11:45:40.561-05:002012-12-25T11:45:40.561-05:00This is going to take a long time to fix just as i...<i>This is going to take a long time to fix just as it took a long time to corrupt completely.</i><br /><br />All tings being equal, yes. But all things don't remain equal and when big change comes, usually something catalyzes it, often a shock to the system like a war, depression or crisis, but sometimes just a trend coming to a head, as when Nixon unilaterally shut the gold window changing the global monetary system overnight.<br /><br />The objective is to have your plan either at the forefront, prominently displayed, or at least on the table when big change comes and a fresh solution is called for.<br /><br />At pressent it is not just an economic issue but also a social and political one involving crony capitalism, corruption, suppression of civil liberties and a whole range of issue stemming from neoliberalism as an ethical, social, political and economic ideology.<br /><br />MMT just adds an economic dimension to a broader debate and it needs to fit itself into the broader debate. There are a lot of potential allies out there that just don't know it yet. These are the activists that most MMT'ers will never become because they are not suited for it. but we can influence them.Tom Hickeyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08454222098667643650noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2761684730989137546.post-3601334452972218312012-12-25T11:44:00.734-05:002012-12-25T11:44:00.734-05:00The folks that are looking to establish their own ...<i>The folks that are looking to establish their own politics as a normative baseline labeled "non political" can find a home at MR.</i><br /><br />Fixed that for you. The apolitical claim is always either lack of self-awareness or intent to deceive.geerussellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10631984593634015839noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2761684730989137546.post-65471411322466244292012-12-25T11:29:05.505-05:002012-12-25T11:29:05.505-05:00"MMT believes that explaining Monetary Sovere...<i>"MMT believes that explaining Monetary Sovereignty in ever simpler terms, somehow will awaken the populace to the fallacy of deficit reduction"</i> - Rodger<br /><br />This is just wrong, MMT doesn't believe this and nether do it's major proponents.<br /><br />The MMT academics are plenty confrontational and call bullshit as often as you do.<br /><br />How successful have you been? How's your constant dialog with the Chicago Tribune working out? Gotten through yet?<br /><br />I didn't think so.<br /><br />Your approach isn't special, you're just experimenting looking for some way to get through just like everyone else.<br /><br />The folks we are trying to get through to do not want to hear it no matter how we frame it or approach it. We have three generations of voters that were educated with the express idea of preventing us from understanding these things.<br /><br />The system is designed to screw us, and running around screaming "conspiracy" isn't going to help...proving the Emperor has no clothes is a better approach until we are able to educate young people, before they have been ruined by the system.<br /><br />This is going to take a long time to fix just as it took a long time to corrupt completely.<br /><br />There are no guarantees we will succeed., but the fact that TPTB will never be able to trump arithmetic is an advantage we can exploit.paul melihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04604543110795683837noreply@blogger.com