tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2761684730989137546.post8953563004350297806..comments2024-03-29T02:19:19.866-04:00Comments on Mike Norman Economics: Democrats Operate Under GOP Coercion?mike normanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03296006882513340747noreply@blogger.comBlogger32125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2761684730989137546.post-86028330935086600332012-05-27T19:02:30.161-04:002012-05-27T19:02:30.161-04:00@ MMT P.
My impression is that the GOP's goal...@ MMT P.<br /><br />My impression is that the GOP's goal in both the Clinton and Obama administrations was to undermine the president as a political strategy. The goal is to prevent the opposition from doing anything substantial until they can regain power. I would have to convinced otherwise.Tom Hickeyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08454222098667643650noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2761684730989137546.post-57379573880586975752012-05-27T18:55:33.686-04:002012-05-27T18:55:33.686-04:00"…Is it the GOP's fault that there is no ..."…Is it the GOP's fault that there is no budget for 3 years?…"<br /><br />Pretty much every budget proposal on the table over the last few years would have been economic suicide if enacted.<br /><br />I for one welcome for a great deal more gridlock on this issue.<br /><br />No change would be better than the changes proposed by either party.paul melihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04604543110795683837noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2761684730989137546.post-44304265185529549072012-05-27T18:49:08.149-04:002012-05-27T18:49:08.149-04:00Tom I agree with you but that really doesn't a...Tom I agree with you but that really doesn't address the pot shots you took at the GOP does it? The Democrats had complete control of the government for a good period of time and you want to call out GOP obstructionism? The Dems can't even get their own coalition to agree on basic things. Is it the GOP's fault that there is no budget for 3 years? The Dems won't even vote on one. Seriously?Matt P.https://www.blogger.com/profile/08455609649406249128noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2761684730989137546.post-29269793220249966192012-05-27T13:27:48.490-04:002012-05-27T13:27:48.490-04:00@ Matt P.
Both parties will play to voters and th...@ Matt P.<br /><br />Both parties will play to voters and the party out of power has more leeway in this than the party in power, since they won't be held accountable.<br /><br />It's well known that politics is run by polling and messaging. Both parties spend huge amounts on determining where voters stand and what they want to hear. They craft a message favoring their constituencies around this, with enough appeal to the center to garner the votes needed to win.<br /><br />Part of the messaging is also to weaken the opponent, and negative advertising has been shown be to be highly effective.<br /><br />While many if not most of the public say they appalled by the tactics, at least of the party they don't support, the strategy and tactics will continue being used as long as it works on voters.<br /><br />Campaigns are almost never about the actual issues because voters are not motivated by policy issues. Politics is much more visceral, which is why it is so ugly. It's a form of combat. In former times, there are actual blood flowing in contests for power. Today, not so much, but it is still ugly emotionally.Tom Hickeyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08454222098667643650noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2761684730989137546.post-85088075657243523432012-05-27T09:12:30.235-04:002012-05-27T09:12:30.235-04:00I should add that I am speaking of the Democratic ...I should add that I am speaking of the Democratic Senators in 2006.Matt P.https://www.blogger.com/profile/08455609649406249128noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2761684730989137546.post-89660652680596547052012-05-27T09:07:15.447-04:002012-05-27T09:07:15.447-04:00@ Tom
This is exactly the type of BS I was comment...@ Tom<br />This is exactly the type of BS I was commenting on originally where one party is labelled extreme and intransigent and obstructive. Dollars to donuts that wasn't your position on the Democratic party when they voted I believe unanimously against raising the debt ceiling. I mean the very thing at the heart of MMT they politicized. They were extreme. They were obstructive. It is called politics... <br /><br />Our dear President at the time: The fact that we are here today to debate raising America’s debt limit is a sign of leadership failure. It is a sign that the U.S. Government can’t pay its own bills. It is a sign that we now depend on ongoing financial assistance from foreign countries to finance our Government’s reckless fiscal policies. … Increasing America’s debt weakens us domestically and internationally. Leadership means that ‘the buck stops here. Instead, Washington is shifting the burden of bad choices today onto the backs of our children and grandchildren. America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership. Americans deserve better.Matt P.https://www.blogger.com/profile/08455609649406249128noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2761684730989137546.post-6135248623114104302012-05-26T13:04:03.381-04:002012-05-26T13:04:03.381-04:00@ Joe (Letsgetitgone)
The Dems have an excuse in ...@ Joe (Letsgetitgone)<br /><br />The Dems have an excuse in GOP obstruction in both the Clinton and Obama administrations, but they aren't fighting it either, since the New Democrats in charge of the party and Rubinites. The Dems are just trying to blunt the attack to save face with the base, rather than to avoid the thrust at the heart of the New Deal and the Old Democratic Party. Progressives have no meaningful voice. If there were a moderate wing of the GOP, SS would already be delivered to Wall Street. Right now the intransigeant GOP extreme demands are preventing a deal that both parties could endorse and survive. The GOP wants to use this opportunity to drive a stake through the heart of the Democratic Party, and the Dems aren't going for that, obviously, secure that the electorate isn't that extreme..Tom Hickeyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08454222098667643650noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2761684730989137546.post-36197160952129956112012-05-26T12:47:21.365-04:002012-05-26T12:47:21.365-04:00Leverage: "Plus, no one of the maxim causers ...Leverage: "Plus, no one of the maxim causers of the problem is going to be purged. It only feeds into a minority which end up with all the assets anyway by creating economic chaos and serfdom through money scarcity."<br /><br />This is the kicker. Naomi Klein has named it — "disaster capitalism." "Never let a good crisis go to waste, and if needed, just manufacture one."<br /><br />Always been, and always will be if the institutional arrangements don't change. <br /><br />In fact, it used to be that the financial sector would load the populace up with collateralized debt and recourse loans, and then call them in, forcing a reset with lenders owning the assets. <br /><br />The Federal Reserve Act of 1913 was in part a reaction to this. The lenders realized that they had to compromise and wrote legislation as friendly to them as they could get passed.Tom Hickeyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08454222098667643650noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2761684730989137546.post-12082096770662124622012-05-26T11:37:31.372-04:002012-05-26T11:37:31.372-04:00I agree with most of what's been said, of cour...I agree with most of what's been said, of course, other than with Bob's views, which are always good for a laugh. However, I think's Matt Franko's inference that this:<br /><br />"I predict that he (Romney) will not act to protect our children or our economy from the suicidal and “immoral” austerity his Republican allies are trying to coerce the Democrats to inflict on our economy and our children."<br /><br />implies that Bill thinks the Democrats are acting the way they are because the Rs are coercing them is a stretch. As it stands the above quote is correct. It describes what the Republicans have been doing since Obama's election, and is even more to the point since the Rs got back the House.<br /><br />Bill didn't mention that the Ds haven't needed much coercion to go along with their 'austerity'. But I think other things he's written certainly indicate that he knows very well that many of the Ds including the President are just as responsible for the austerity trope, and, in the case of the President, have even led the way telling the lie that "we're running out of money."Letsgetitdonehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07607539419260450949noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2761684730989137546.post-67950662173797414372012-05-26T10:12:40.101-04:002012-05-26T10:12:40.101-04:00The market constantly purges 'malinvestment...The market constantly purges 'malinvestment', corporations close every day even if the economy is booming, and inflation is a feedback loop into the system which is always working. If you are unproductive inflation will eat your wealth, period.<br /><br />The notion that you need some sort of great depression to sanitize the system is a moral tale which is based on wrong assumptions. Plus, no one of the maxim causers of the problem is going to be purged. It only feeds into a minority which end up with all the assets anyway by creating economic chaos and serfdom through money scarcity.<br /><br />Silly economics.Leveragenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2761684730989137546.post-6111393746601825432012-05-26T08:45:35.144-04:002012-05-26T08:45:35.144-04:00Bob said
"…slashing the military budget…&quo...Bob said<br /><br />"…slashing the military budget…"<br /><br />Slashing the military budget will remove money from the economy. Money (a proxy for things money can buy) is the fuel that drives it.<br /><br />So far he's made things worse.<br /><br />"…while weaning people off entitlements over the long term…"<br /><br />He's going to starve them slowly instead of all at once.<br /><br />"…while what he perceives as malinvestment is worked though…"<br /><br />For me mal-investment is way over-rated as a problem. The Market™ is supposed to be the all-powerful God in dealing with this, and here they may have it right. Creative destruction. Species that couldn't compete or adjust went the way of the dodo.<br /><br />We live in a trial-and-error world. Every event in the known universe is trial-and-error. Statistical events.<br /><br />I don't see how mal-investment could be the cause of the GFC.<br /><br />It didn't happen through trial-and-error. The cause was purposeful.paul melihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04604543110795683837noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2761684730989137546.post-8247991894517389282012-05-26T05:13:35.612-04:002012-05-26T05:13:35.612-04:00What has morality to do with maths? This feeds bac...What has morality to do with maths? This feeds back into your recent post, Tom, into the mindset of the conservative, realism vs. idealism, actionable policies vs. fantasy economics.<br /><br />Morality is this weird subjective thing where some 'moral' actions can cause harm to third persons, centuries of morals from religions have showed that to us. Austerity, for example is designed to penalize and harm 90% of the society.<br /><br />The same way, deflation is mathematically speaking, an impossible endeavour, which will harm >90% of the population.<br /><br />This morality is build on top of nihilism, is an auto-destructive sort of nihilism. I find the origins of this mindset extremely interesting, and also dominant in certain type of communities and societies. <br /><br />But because the disruption it creates, hardly sustainable. In fact what they are asking for is for the inevitable end of violence and repression. "Morally", they would approve of it to protect their 'right's', their status quo, where private property trumps anything else. <br /><br />When you have 10 dogs chasing 9 bones, and the share of bones 9 of the dogs is constantly decreasing, being marginalized... inevitably, corporate fascism is their preferred form of organisation. All to suit the mindset of the nihilist.Leveragenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2761684730989137546.post-61844632199649124072012-05-25T23:01:01.901-04:002012-05-25T23:01:01.901-04:00Bob, let's look at the present situation in th...Bob, let's look at the present situation in the US and optons for dealing with it.I posted a link to Edward Harrison, whose background is Austrian economics, on why deficits are effects of the sectoral balance identity, for which he credits Wynne Godley's monetary economics. As you know from reading about MMT, that's an important input for MMT, too.<br /><br />IN order to reduced debt overhang, either the debt has to be written down or paid down. Paying down debt is counted as saving. Moreover, corporations are saving rather than investing. In addition, the US is a net importer and given the current state of world economy, it isn't likely to become a net exporter anytime soon. If you peruse Godley and Lavoie's Monetary Economics, you will find stock flow consistent modeling that uses official data to calculate aggregates, which gives a fair approximation of the sectoral balances and shows what is needed to offset the nongovernment surplus.<br /><br />Presently, the domestic private sector is saving more than investing, i.e., is in surplus, while the external sector is in surplus is the capital account is the mirror image of the current account. By identity, the government has be in deficit in that amount, since the three sectors sums to zero. Godley's SFC modeling shows that this is significant and requires allowing the deficit to expand rather than shrinking it with austerity measures.<br /><br />If government restricts its deficit, then either imports must fall or the domestic private sector will not be able to accomplish its saving desire, including deleveraging. While imports would fall somewhat, if they didn't fall enough, then defaults and bankruptcies would mount, forcing write downs. This would further dry up credit as creditors tightened. This can easily spiral into debt deflation, and more and more debts cannot be serviced been, even though they would have if the economy were at its previous level before austerity bit.<br /><br />The result is recession, at least, and there is a risk of debt-deflationary depression in an era of high private debt, such as now. <br /><br />Do you think that the pain of contraction is just an inevitable consequence and we should bite the bullet and ride it out whatever happens, or do you have another solution? <br /><br />For example, Harrison thinks that write downs are inevitable, but we should run a large enough deficit to enable sufficient deleveraging to prevent a severe contraction while what he perceives as malinvestment is worked though.Tom Hickeyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08454222098667643650noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2761684730989137546.post-66927332743561521322012-05-25T22:46:49.753-04:002012-05-25T22:46:49.753-04:00Well, you got the unsustainable credit expansion p...Well, you got the unsustainable credit expansion part right, but that only applies to the private sector, not the US Gov't.<br /><br />Wrong Paul and his son Ayn need to have a good solid read of "The 7 Deadly Innocent Frauds of Economic Policy".Unforgivennoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2761684730989137546.post-53802209311179489272012-05-25T22:00:15.601-04:002012-05-25T22:00:15.601-04:00"Lord Keynes" doesn't even understan..."Lord Keynes" doesn't even understand the basic Austrian concept of economic [mis]calculation. Not that any MMTers understand the concept.<br /><br />Further, no Austrian is unaware of the tragedy and pain of depressions induced by unsustainable credit expansion and government spending. As a practical matter, Ron Paul has called for slashing the military budget while weaning people off entitlements over the long term. That's not exactly "liquidationism".Bob Roddishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17263804608074597937noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2761684730989137546.post-74020551945648153492012-05-25T21:13:07.707-04:002012-05-25T21:13:07.707-04:00"Bob's posts are not the remarks of a &qu..."Bob's posts are not the remarks of a "troll""<br /><br />Off-topic comments critical of the group he's trying to get the attention of by making hyperbolic statements to get some reaction is trolling from where I come from. YMMV.<br /><br />The fact that he was or wasn't an Austrian wasn't brought up.<br /><br />Bob rarely makes coherent arguments so most don't takes him seriously. That's his fault.<br /><br />We read and listen to Ed Harrison, an Austrian. If you will note his approach is somewhat different than Bob's.<br /><br />Some of the posters asked him to answer some legitimate questions - he hasn't responded yet.<br /><br />Got any other complaints?<br /><br />As Matt would say…<br /><br />Resp.paul melihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04604543110795683837noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2761684730989137546.post-26662421136554706982012-05-25T20:59:32.118-04:002012-05-25T20:59:32.118-04:00I just put up a post linking to "Lord Keynes&...I just put up a post linking to "Lord Keynes" on Austrian economics and liquidationism. Let's take this discussion there.Tom Hickeyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08454222098667643650noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2761684730989137546.post-54296808297231712492012-05-25T20:49:53.833-04:002012-05-25T20:49:53.833-04:00Matt, Absolutely correct on all points. Dems want ...Matt, Absolutely correct on all points. Dems want to remove money from the economy by taxing everything. Reps want to do it by cutting down on spending. Both parties are guilty of lying, pandering and corruption.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2761684730989137546.post-6597776336021949682012-05-25T20:44:24.300-04:002012-05-25T20:44:24.300-04:00FWIW, snide remarks to Austrians are not helpful. ...FWIW, snide remarks to Austrians are not helpful. Bob's posts are not the remarks of a "troll". If he comes into the house of MMT he should be treated like a guest unless and until his posts become offensive in language or personal.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2761684730989137546.post-84780567814655120782012-05-25T19:56:57.725-04:002012-05-25T19:56:57.725-04:00Why are the anti-planners trying to "plan&quo...Why are the anti-planners trying to "plan" the deficit? <br /><br />Let it FLOAT!Charles Haydennoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2761684730989137546.post-23648999156926115412012-05-25T19:51:13.020-04:002012-05-25T19:51:13.020-04:00Tom,
People like Bob know that "austerity&qu...Tom,<br /><br />People like Bob know that "austerity" will be horribly painful so trying to convince them about MMT by warning them about the pain is not at all persuasive. In fact, quite the reverse. They view it as a sort of overdue justice. I know because until about a year ago I was in their camp and felt the exact same way.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2761684730989137546.post-4028440123218140032012-05-25T19:49:01.242-04:002012-05-25T19:49:01.242-04:00OK, Bob. What is "unsustainable spending"...OK, Bob. What is "unsustainable spending" for the US Gov't?Unforgivennoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2761684730989137546.post-45425361091661655962012-05-25T18:46:45.830-04:002012-05-25T18:46:45.830-04:00The use of the word "austerity" by Keyne...The use of the word "austerity" by Keynesians is a distortion of the language. Going back to 2009 levels of spending is not "austere" and will invariably fail but be called "austere" by Keynesians to mislead average people. <br /><br />http://thegodthatfailed.org/2012/05/15/blowing-the-whistle-on-uk-austerity/<br /><br />Of course, when unsustainable spending is stopped, there is an inevitable period of pain as plans are changed to sustainable projects.Bob Roddishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17263804608074597937noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2761684730989137546.post-85592774230465912562012-05-25T17:39:02.770-04:002012-05-25T17:39:02.770-04:00Bob, watch what happens when the country marches o...Bob, watch what happens when the country marches off the fiscal cliff if austerity is pursued. BTW, it won't be, because no political party is going to shoot itself in the head.<br /><br />And what's up with Europe? Fiscal austerity is sinking their ship.<br /><br />Oh and Japan just expanded its deficit to deal with the tsunami and grown increased? Coincidental? Of right, "inflation," except that Japan has been fighting deflation for a couple of decades not and yields are at historical lows.Tom Hickeyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08454222098667643650noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2761684730989137546.post-80723055469617826792012-05-25T16:16:55.839-04:002012-05-25T16:16:55.839-04:00Troll much?
OT, but
"fiat funny-money "...Troll much?<br /><br />OT, but<br /><br />"fiat funny-money "printing""?<br /><br />How is gold-backed money-printing different?paul melihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04604543110795683837noreply@blogger.com