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Monday, November 5, 2012
Ayn Rand advocate Paul Ryan: Obama policies threaten ‘Judeo-Christian values’
Will the real Paul Ryan please stand up? Ryan vies with Romney in the shapeshifting championship as the campaign climaxes.
Check link Tom, but this looks like "shoring up the base" with the GOPs typical demographic within Christendom... ie that segment ex-"social/economic justice".... the blogpost mentions the call was with "evangelicals" that is code for this segment...
Right but they need the "swing" vote to win Tom, that is not this segment imo... I cant understand their strategy here... unless this thing is going precinct by precinct... hard to understand... rsp,
"It’s a path that grows government, restricts freedom and liberty and compromises those values, those Judeo-Christian, Western civilization values that made us such a great and exceptional nation in the first place.”
He is mixing up/conflating "east and west" here... rsp
"It’s a path that grows government, restricts freedom and liberty and compromises those values, those Judeo-Christian, Western civilization values that made us such a great and exceptional nation in the first place.”
Dodo reasoning that has no historical basis. The Jewish and Christian traditions are patriarchal and authoritarian, and as Ayn Rand correctly apprehended, they are antithetical to "freedom and liberty" conceived as individualism. Which is is why we have separation of religion and government in the US as one of the basic constitutionally guaranteed freedoms.
Ryan is a guy that wants to have it both ways even when that is contradictory.
Where does he "draw the line" that separates east and west here?
Tom, Ive never read any of those old Greco-Roman writings you posted that link to a while back, but have been reading some from time to time lately and thru context I get the idea there was a lot of communal socio-economic activity taking place back then in/around the temples... this would be (to me) "western tradition"... public idol sacrifices and the feasts I get the idea were a way to provide assurance that much of the community had regular access to high protein nutrition (meat)... also looks like the grains and fruits both were rationed, and nobody "charged for water", etc... no record of social Darwinism that I can detect so far...
Matt we often don't realize that the economies of most ancient societies was slave-dependent. Aristotle, the great champion of "democracy" in the West argued that the working class were sub-human and natural slaves. Aquinas agreed with Aristotle's logic and pointed out that Christian values had eventually eradicated most slavery in Christian countries of Europe. But Europeans were not chiefly agriculturalists prior to Roman subjugation. The Romans introduced "civilization" to Europe and only Roman citizens were legally free and equal before the law. Roman citizenship was a high prize. The so-called freedom that the West taught the world was based on freedom men of property, and this was also true of Athens, the "birthplace of democracy." This is a reason that the US was founded as a republic whose economy was based on slavery and where populist democrats were suppressed right off the bat.
It's also at the basis of Rand's conception of individual freedom. You have to win it by clawing to the top.
The Jewish and Christian political stance prohibited slavery but it was thoroughly authoritarian and patriarchal, too.
All that blather by Ryan and the rest notwithstanding. It's all just made up.
In the Greek scriptures the word that is often translated as "slave" is doulos which looks to me like some sort of "pairing" or "bond servant".... I dont see that as the same thing we today know as "chattel slavery"... maybe this was part of the way they figured out how to keep everyone employed and cared for.
Paul didnt go all around Greece and Rome opening up soup kitchens OR advocating for the end of "slavery"...
In the Greek scriptures the word that is often translated as "slave" is doulos which looks to me like some sort of "pairing" or "bond servant".... I dont see that as the same thing we today know as "chattel slavery"... maybe this was part of the way they figured out how to keep everyone employed and cared for.
Of course there were many varieties of "slavery" in ancient times, from "right of conquest" to debt bondage. But slaves were not hired help in the modern sense, either. See Wikipedia on the history of slavery. It's an ancient and persistent institution. Aristotle was not off the mark empirically in calling it "natural."
Paul didnt go all around Greece and Rome opening up soup kitchens OR advocating for the end of "slavery"...
Right. It didn't come until Christianity was well-established. There was no way that Christians were going to provoke TPTB like that when they were already persecuted as what we could call "a dangerous cult" today. Moreover, slavery persisted in many Christian states until modern times, as did serfdom, i.e., bondage to the land.
" Aristotle, the great champion of "democracy" in the West argued that the working class were sub-human and natural slaves. Aquinas agreed with Aristotle's logic and pointed out that Christian values had eventually eradicated most slavery..."
Sufficed to say then that I do not agree with both Aristotle and Aquinas (aka Paul Ryan) here then...
I think about the economic hardship this (non-participation in temple activities) may have caused the early Christian believers... left them removed from a significant economic flow that was set up for the citizens in the nations....
This could be where "charity" first got it's claws in as these early Christians had to help each other/share with each other if any came in possession of surplus... then quickly it degrades to "from each according to ability, to each according to need"/re-distribution, etc... eventually "the church" becomes the "broker" of these surpluses and corrupt; civil govt remains a separate institution and corrupt also, these 2 institutions battle for control over the centuries, sometimes allied, often not...
no one is in charge and somehow the concept of endogenous "money" ie nomisma is forgotten for 2,000 years... the "church" continues to run on "charity" and the govt continues to run on endogenous "money"... both institutions with morons at the controls... what a mess!
Check link Tom, but this looks like "shoring up the base" with the GOPs typical demographic within Christendom... ie that segment ex-"social/economic justice".... the blogpost mentions the call was with "evangelicals" that is code for this segment...
ReplyDeletersp,
Link fixed.
ReplyDeleteWell, we know why he said that to this group. Did he then cribe across town and give and Ayn Rand speech to the Tea Party folks?
Right but they need the "swing" vote to win Tom, that is not this segment imo... I cant understand their strategy here... unless this thing is going precinct by precinct... hard to understand... rsp,
ReplyDeleteInteresting Ryan here:
ReplyDelete"It’s a path that grows government, restricts freedom and liberty and compromises those values, those Judeo-Christian, Western civilization values that made us such a great and exceptional nation in the first place.”
He is mixing up/conflating "east and west" here... rsp
"It’s a path that grows government, restricts freedom and liberty and compromises those values, those Judeo-Christian, Western civilization values that made us such a great and exceptional nation in the first place.”
ReplyDeleteDodo reasoning that has no historical basis. The Jewish and Christian traditions are patriarchal and authoritarian, and as Ayn Rand correctly apprehended, they are antithetical to "freedom and liberty" conceived as individualism. Which is is why we have separation of religion and government in the US as one of the basic constitutionally guaranteed freedoms.
Ryan is a guy that wants to have it both ways even when that is contradictory.
Where does he "draw the line" that separates east and west here?
ReplyDeleteTom, Ive never read any of those old Greco-Roman writings you posted that link to a while back, but have been reading some from time to time lately and thru context I get the idea there was a lot of communal socio-economic activity taking place back then in/around the temples... this would be (to me) "western tradition"... public idol sacrifices and the feasts I get the idea were a way to provide assurance that much of the community had regular access to high protein nutrition (meat)... also looks like the grains and fruits both were rationed, and nobody "charged for water", etc... no record of social Darwinism that I can detect so far...
rsp,
Matt we often don't realize that the economies of most ancient societies was slave-dependent. Aristotle, the great champion of "democracy" in the West argued that the working class were sub-human and natural slaves. Aquinas agreed with Aristotle's logic and pointed out that Christian values had eventually eradicated most slavery in Christian countries of Europe. But Europeans were not chiefly agriculturalists prior to Roman subjugation. The Romans introduced "civilization" to Europe and only Roman citizens were legally free and equal before the law. Roman citizenship was a high prize. The so-called freedom that the West taught the world was based on freedom men of property, and this was also true of Athens, the "birthplace of democracy." This is a reason that the US was founded as a republic whose economy was based on slavery and where populist democrats were suppressed right off the bat.
ReplyDeleteIt's also at the basis of Rand's conception of individual freedom. You have to win it by clawing to the top.
The Jewish and Christian political stance prohibited slavery but it was thoroughly authoritarian and patriarchal, too.
All that blather by Ryan and the rest notwithstanding. It's all just made up.
Tom,
ReplyDeleteIn the Greek scriptures the word that is often translated as "slave" is doulos which looks to me like some sort of "pairing" or "bond servant".... I dont see that as the same thing we today know as "chattel slavery"... maybe this was part of the way they figured out how to keep everyone employed and cared for.
Paul didnt go all around Greece and Rome opening up soup kitchens OR advocating for the end of "slavery"...
rsp,
In the Greek scriptures the word that is often translated as "slave" is doulos which looks to me like some sort of "pairing" or "bond servant".... I dont see that as the same thing we today know as "chattel slavery"... maybe this was part of the way they figured out how to keep everyone employed and cared for.
ReplyDeleteOf course there were many varieties of "slavery" in ancient times, from "right of conquest" to debt bondage. But slaves were not hired help in the modern sense, either. See Wikipedia on the history of slavery. It's an ancient and persistent institution. Aristotle was not off the mark empirically in calling it "natural."
Paul didnt go all around Greece and Rome opening up soup kitchens OR advocating for the end of "slavery"...
Right. It didn't come until Christianity was well-established. There was no way that Christians were going to provoke TPTB like that when they were already persecuted as what we could call "a dangerous cult" today. Moreover, slavery persisted in many Christian states until modern times, as did serfdom, i.e., bondage to the land.
" Aristotle, the great champion of "democracy" in the West argued that the working class were sub-human and natural slaves. Aquinas agreed with Aristotle's logic and pointed out that Christian values had eventually eradicated most slavery..."
ReplyDeleteSufficed to say then that I do not agree with both Aristotle and Aquinas (aka Paul Ryan) here then...
I think about the economic hardship this (non-participation in temple activities) may have caused the early Christian believers... left them removed from a significant economic flow that was set up for the citizens in the nations....
This could be where "charity" first got it's claws in as these early Christians had to help each other/share with each other if any came in possession of surplus... then quickly it degrades to "from each according to ability, to each according to need"/re-distribution, etc... eventually "the church" becomes the "broker" of these surpluses and corrupt; civil govt remains a separate institution and corrupt also, these 2 institutions battle for control over the centuries, sometimes allied, often not...
no one is in charge and somehow the concept of endogenous "money" ie nomisma is forgotten for 2,000 years... the "church" continues to run on "charity" and the govt continues to run on endogenous "money"... both institutions with morons at the controls... what a mess!
rsp,