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Sunday, March 2, 2014
Sober Look — Two myths about the Ukrainian conflict
He might be short in the brains department, but if Putin didnt go in to at least protect ethnic Russians from "ethnic cleansing" he would have shown he had no balls either... and a bunch of ethnic Russians probably would have been massacred....
these perhaps emerging non-morons might not know how to design and implement sanitary systems in Sochi, which is the type of thing the west has enjoyed for 1,000s of years, but they may have gotten this military situation right this time here in Ukraine...
Russia has economic, cultural and political ties to Ukraine. Europe does too. Ukraine should have an advantage over the two and play neutral and use their position to strengthen ties with both at the same time to allay fears of going one way or the other.
Well Ryan I believe there was some blood lust starting to become evident there and its hard to find fault in the Russians going in there to at least prevent barbarian chaos...
And as far as the US reaction here, lets remember this is the Obama/Clinton/Kerry state department... this is far from the "A Team"...
The only difference between the Russian regime and Ukrainian fascists is how many weapons they bring to the table. Both are willing to slaughter each other.
Bob, it's geopolitics and geostrategy. Realpollitik, which is what the US has decided upon, is a zero-sum game. Since the fall of the USSR, the US has been pushing Russia to determine where the red lines are. Putin drew one in Georgia and he's drawing one in the Ukraine. He is willing to fight and he's betting that the US is not. I hope he is right, and I think he is. He also has the economic leverage on his side. The Ukraine is a basket case economically, supported by Russia. If the West wants it, it has to beat or at least much the Russian bid. So far all the West is offering is austerity and a lot of bluster. In addition, it's seriously roiling the US deep state, with the neocons enraged.
We will have drop USD in their currency zone to beat the Russians and we could avoid a lot of useless bloodlet by just plopping out the stimulus of which the lack of is the reason why we are here in the face of warring factions.
It is USA fault for not spending ant time place snd USD there in the first place.
I am quite shocked that the MMT crowd is not taking the task to show that German AUSTERITY is playing out here as well as plans for Merkel maiden's pipeline through Syria.
Just what Merkel needed to get Russia out of balance so she can slip the pipeline.
US has no direct strategic stake in Ukraine other than to be thorn in Russia's side so best bet is to not meddle. Likely outcome as I see it is that Ukraine partitions along ethnic lines with Russia taking Crimea and maybe more from Ukraine not unlike how they took North Ossetia from Georgia.
No love here Putin seems corrupt but for better or worse he is the authority on scene and has to get troops in there to separate the ethnic factions and restore order... protect the ethnic Russians at least .... if he pulls this off without much bloodshed, his reputation only increases in the area....
Agree Ed best not to meddle... but this is Kerry we are talking about and I look at him as a textbook 'meddler'... US should be 'taking the high road' here and focusing on the possibilty of genocides and perhaps even encouraging Russia to get in there and break it up... spin it so that it looks like Russia is a US client... but may be too late seems like Kerry & Co are playing the role of belligerents as well...
Matt - Intercepted "F$%k the EU" phone comment from State Dept official Victoria Nuland lends support to the Russian claim that the US has been meddling in Ukraine. I don't think we should be encouraging Russia to get in there (presumably eastern Ukraine) in addition to Crimea. We should stay out and not get involved. In this case I have to agree with Pat Buchanan... http://www.humanevents.com/author/patrick-j-buchanan/
I think Putin is drawing a RED LINE to inform the west how it perceives its security needs.
Ed seems to me Russia has to decide whether they want to be part of the west or not... seems like they are leaning towards "not"... that said I dont see how they can just sit there and do nothing while perhaps a bunch of ethnic Russians in Ukraine start to become targets for genocide... if they pull this off without too much bloodshed imo they will earn the respect of the US warrior class...
rsp,
(btw I voted for Pat Buchanan iirc two times back in the 90's as a GOPer.)
seems to me Russia has to decide whether they want to be part of the west or not...
That opportunity existed after the break up of the UUSR and Russia said it was open to joining NATO, which would have meant Western integration, or at least the beginning of it. The West nixed it. Plus, Russia already had its taste of neoliberalism when it liberalized after the break up of the USSR and saw the oligarchs and Russian mafia take over.
So according to Mr. Parry, this is but a side show orchestrated by Neocons so that their plans against Syria and Iran can move forward. Ukraine is merely a means to an end.
Parry gives us a view into the deep state and its court politics. Pretty much the same as court politics historically.
Interestingly, Pope Francis has moved decisively to take charge of the court politics of the Vatican, run by the Curia. We'll see how successful he is, but he is not making the mistakes that Obama (and his predecessor popes) did. He is cleaning house instead.
He might be short in the brains department, but if Putin didnt go in to at least protect ethnic Russians from "ethnic cleansing" he would have shown he had no balls either... and a bunch of ethnic Russians probably would have been massacred....
ReplyDeletethese perhaps emerging non-morons might not know how to design and implement sanitary systems in Sochi, which is the type of thing the west has enjoyed for 1,000s of years, but they may have gotten this military situation right this time here in Ukraine...
GDP Per capita:
ReplyDeleteEurope: $32,000
Ukraine: $2,100
Russia: $6,800
Russia has economic, cultural and political ties to Ukraine. Europe does too. Ukraine should have an advantage over the two and play neutral and use their position to strengthen ties with both at the same time to allay fears of going one way or the other.
Well Ryan I believe there was some blood lust starting to become evident there and its hard to find fault in the Russians going in there to at least prevent barbarian chaos...
ReplyDeleteAnd as far as the US reaction here, lets remember this is the Obama/Clinton/Kerry state department... this is far from the "A Team"...
rsp,
What is this? A Putin love fest?
ReplyDeleteThe only difference between the Russian regime and Ukrainian fascists is how many weapons they bring to the table. Both are willing to slaughter each other.
Bob, it's geopolitics and geostrategy. Realpollitik, which is what the US has decided upon, is a zero-sum game. Since the fall of the USSR, the US has been pushing Russia to determine where the red lines are. Putin drew one in Georgia and he's drawing one in the Ukraine. He is willing to fight and he's betting that the US is not. I hope he is right, and I think he is. He also has the economic leverage on his side. The Ukraine is a basket case economically, supported by Russia. If the West wants it, it has to beat or at least much the Russian bid. So far all the West is offering is austerity and a lot of bluster. In addition, it's seriously roiling the US deep state, with the neocons enraged.
ReplyDeleteGreat point Tom....
ReplyDeleteWe will have drop USD in their currency zone to beat the Russians and we could avoid a lot of useless bloodlet by just plopping out the stimulus of which the lack of is the reason why we are here in the face of warring factions.
It is USA fault for not spending ant time place snd USD there in the first place.
I am quite shocked that the MMT crowd is not taking the task to show that German AUSTERITY is playing out here as well as plans for Merkel maiden's pipeline through Syria.
Just what Merkel needed to get Russia out of balance so she can slip the pipeline.
US has no direct strategic stake in Ukraine other than to be thorn in Russia's side so best bet is to not meddle. Likely outcome as I see it is that Ukraine partitions along ethnic lines with Russia taking Crimea and maybe more from Ukraine not unlike how they took North Ossetia from Georgia.
ReplyDeletebob,
ReplyDeleteNo love here Putin seems corrupt but for better or worse he is the authority on scene and has to get troops in there to separate the ethnic factions and restore order... protect the ethnic Russians at least .... if he pulls this off without much bloodshed, his reputation only increases in the area....
Agree Ed best not to meddle... but this is Kerry we are talking about and I look at him as a textbook 'meddler'... US should be 'taking the high road' here and focusing on the possibilty of genocides and perhaps even encouraging Russia to get in there and break it up... spin it so that it looks like Russia is a US client... but may be too late seems like Kerry & Co are playing the role of belligerents as well...
rsp,
Matt - Intercepted "F$%k the EU" phone comment from State Dept official Victoria Nuland lends support to the Russian claim that the US has been meddling in Ukraine. I don't think we should be encouraging Russia to get in there (presumably eastern Ukraine) in addition to Crimea. We should stay out and not get involved. In this case I have to agree with Pat Buchanan... http://www.humanevents.com/author/patrick-j-buchanan/
ReplyDeleteI think Putin is drawing a RED LINE to inform the west how it perceives its security needs.
Ed seems to me Russia has to decide whether they want to be part of the west or not... seems like they are leaning towards "not"... that said I dont see how they can just sit there and do nothing while perhaps a bunch of ethnic Russians in Ukraine start to become targets for genocide... if they pull this off without too much bloodshed imo they will earn the respect of the US warrior class...
ReplyDeletersp,
(btw I voted for Pat Buchanan iirc two times back in the 90's as a GOPer.)
Interesting report from Robt. Parry yesterday.
ReplyDeletehttp://consortiumnews.com/2014/03/02/what-neocons-want-from-ukraine-crisis/
seems to me Russia has to decide whether they want to be part of the west or not...
ReplyDeleteThat opportunity existed after the break up of the UUSR and Russia said it was open to joining NATO, which would have meant Western integration, or at least the beginning of it. The West nixed it. Plus, Russia already had its taste of neoliberalism when it liberalized after the break up of the USSR and saw the oligarchs and Russian mafia take over.
So according to Mr. Parry, this is but a side show orchestrated by Neocons so that their plans against Syria and Iran can move forward. Ukraine is merely a means to an end.
ReplyDeleteParry gives us a view into the deep state and its court politics. Pretty much the same as court politics historically.
ReplyDeleteInterestingly, Pope Francis has moved decisively to take charge of the court politics of the Vatican, run by the Curia. We'll see how successful he is, but he is not making the mistakes that Obama (and his predecessor popes) did. He is cleaning house instead.