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Tuesday, August 19, 2014
21st Century Wire — MH17 Verdict: Real Evidence Points to US-Kiev Cover-up of Failed False Flag
Russia released its tracking information on Monday. No response yet from the West.
The simplest explanation is alwasy the most plausible. I continue to think this incident was a fuck-up, since that's the simplest explanation, and an extremely plausible one given the causes of previous incidents of civilian airliners being downed, and that any subsequent misinformation that is deliberate is the product of the same factor that usually comes into heavy play whenever there is a major fuck-up of this kind: CYA
The authors of this article, on the other hand, prefer to go for the wild and complex: a massive and coordinated false flag conspiracy including even the head of the Dutch Pilots Association.
I have to admit that whenever I read "false flag", my eyes tend to glaze over. False flag theories of everthing that happens in the world are the stock and trade of all kinds of tinfoil hat denizen of netroots conspiracy-world out there on the web. It's not that false flag operations can't and haven't occurred. But they are rare. So once I hear someone babbling about one, especially when they have no more evidence than what is contained in this piece, my initial disposition is to think they are naive fools. If they cite Global Research as a source, they have doubled down on crackpot.
It appears that 21st Century Wire is affiliated with Free State Films, another gang of radical right Bundy-style crackpots.
Mistake is the simplest and most obvious answer but questions still remain about whose mistake and how did it happen?
It's by no means established in evidence that the rebels had the capability to bring down a high flying aircraft or that they had reason to suspect Ukrainian military aircraft were attacking them from that altitude, let alone that they did it.
It is even less remote that the missile was launched from Russian territory and I don't believe anyone is claiming that, although the narrative in the Western media has been "Putin did it," with no evidence cited. That lead to the desired result of imposing sanctions on Russia, even though European economies will be disadvantaged by it.
On the other hand there seems to be credible evidence that the Ukrainian military did have such a capability deployed in the region. In addition, there are also gaps in the evidence on the Ukrainian side, like the control tower tapes and logs concerning the movements of MH17, that create suspicion that the government is not being straightforward or that it was a rogue operation. The neo-Nazi Ukrainian nationalists fighting in the Eastern Ukraine against the pro-Russian insurgents seem to be at least to some extent rogue.
Of course, the US-NATO may have evidence they haven't released but that remains to be seen.
So lots of questions still up in the air.
There has certainly not been enough evidence forthcoming to justify a rush to judgment over who is at fault. US actions in this regard just create suspicion of fixing the narrative to get out in front and control the story with the spin.
Mistake is the simplest and most obvious answer but questions still remain about whose mistake and how did it happen?
I agree with that completely, Tom. Critics of the official Washington story would do well to concentrate on what facts have and have not been established, rather than constructing grand narratives about all of the nefarious conspiracies that might be true.
Why the stories are interesting as far as I am concerned is not the conclusions drawn but the evidence put on the table.
Intelligence is about gleaning clues from all possible sources and from every possible angle, analyzing it, and then evaluating it. It's like doing a jigsaw puzzle with many of the pieces as yet missing.
What I see is a insinuation that Putin somehow (not specified) was involved in the "terrorists" in Eastern Ukraine doing intentionally shooting down a plane they knew to be a civilian aircraft.
Tom we are not going to divulge sources and methods (btw you should realize this imo....) to appease a bunch of borderline paranoid conspiracy theorists...
For instance Tom, we have revealed that we can hit a component of a system traveling at 17,000 mph up there here:
"Cartwright says officials also "have a high degree of confidence" — though are not ready to say for sure — that the missile launched from a Navy ship near Hawaii struck the satellite's fuel tank."
ok THAT has been revealed..... but not what the borderline paranoid are looking for in these MH17 events... THAT will not be revealed... and with good reason imo...
This is the problem with much of the lack of transparency and "take it on faith we wouldn't lie to you" attitude of the government that can be used to justify anything it wishes to. It's essentially the descent into dictatorship, which is what a lot of the political kerfuffle is about these days, especially since this was used to sell the lies that created fear and justified the Iraq debacle that is far from over yet. That argument is just bullshit.
Tom you should know how it works and we are NOT going to give this stuff up...
Look, I didnt even vote for this golfer ersatz "President" but I can understand how he has to operate in this situation... you have to trust him if you voted for him imo... I didnt even vote for this guy and I can believe him here or at least understand what he is protecting....
I fell for that once - more than once. Never again. WMDs. Aluminum tubes.
You have the failure to hold the government to account for making shit up to blame for having to deal with paranoiacs.
Hopefully no one is making the claim that sources and methods will be revealed in the content of MH17 flight and voice recorders. Analysis of the content is required to tell us what to think. Truth and transparency are served by dumping the full content right away. That hasn't happened.
Facts, evidence and history indicate to me that it's plausible that there is damning evidence on the MH17 recorders. All the aggressive talk stopped once these were secured. Now it's completely out of the news cycle.
Matt, At the time of the manufactured Gulf of Tonkin crisis I was in the vicinity at the time and suspected it was untrue, or at least that not the whole truth was being told, at the time, only to learn not long afterward that my suspicion was correct.
There was not only a false flag but also there was a cover-up from Congress at time of the subsequent investigation.
Since then I have believed nothing, zip, zero. Trust no one in power anywhere.
Jeff Islam is lucky they had a "born again" in there who felt he had to "justify" whatever we did in the first place...
They are lucky they dont have 100M dead... based on historic comparisons...
Same thing for the Gulf of Tomkin Tom why do these people feel they have to lie to "justify" these things?
The problem is "justification" in the first place...
If Islam came over here and killed 3,000 of our US non-warriors on US soil while the Japanese came to a US territory and killed less than that number of actual warriors which resulted in nuking of Japan why do we have to "justify" anything?
They are lucky W was a "born again" so-called and the left thinks he was out of line... by historic comparisons he was too soft by any measure...
"WMDs, aluminum tubes"... that is what W/Cheney used to "justify" the Iraq thing... W probably did it because Saddam tried to assassinate his father if the truth be known...
Look, after 9/11/2001, draw a line from Morocco to northern Pakistan and any living thing within 500 mi. of that line on either side is fair game... by historic comparison...
Not saying "this is the right thing to do".... but as Tom says, "history has a liberal bias...." and that statement applies here imo... our response against Islam was muted imo... was related to petroleum imo...
It doesn't matter why lies were presented as fact. The result is paranoiacs and the easy grounds for dismissal of evidence presented by the government.
Back to the question at hand, why wasn't I listening to the voice data recording three weeks ago once the free world got their hands on it? Why am I not listening to it now? If there is any conclusive evidence presented once it is finally released, why is it believable?
Jeff I'm not sure if the flight recorder is going to be revealing in this instance... civilian airliners dont have the necessary systems installed...
We will not reveal this data it is too sensitive... get over it... trust the President I assume you voted for... I didnt even vote for this guy who golfs in one month more than I have golfed in the last 15 years... (and btw I like to golf!!!)
I didn't vote for our nation's golfer, but the implication of your statement is that we had the opportunity to vote for someone trustworthy and we didn't.
Seriously?
I agree about the voice recorder likely revealing nothing. But that would be revealing.
The plane diverted, so hearing no conversation regarding this would be cause for suspicion. The ATC recordings were confiscated and have not been released.
The simplest explanation is alwasy the most plausible. I continue to think this incident was a fuck-up, since that's the simplest explanation, and an extremely plausible one given the causes of previous incidents of civilian airliners being downed, and that any subsequent misinformation that is deliberate is the product of the same factor that usually comes into heavy play whenever there is a major fuck-up of this kind: CYA
ReplyDeleteThe authors of this article, on the other hand, prefer to go for the wild and complex: a massive and coordinated false flag conspiracy including even the head of the Dutch Pilots Association.
I have to admit that whenever I read "false flag", my eyes tend to glaze over. False flag theories of everthing that happens in the world are the stock and trade of all kinds of tinfoil hat denizen of netroots conspiracy-world out there on the web. It's not that false flag operations can't and haven't occurred. But they are rare. So once I hear someone babbling about one, especially when they have no more evidence than what is contained in this piece, my initial disposition is to think they are naive fools. If they cite Global Research as a source, they have doubled down on crackpot.
It appears that 21st Century Wire is affiliated with Free State Films, another gang of radical right Bundy-style crackpots.
Mistake is the simplest and most obvious answer but questions still remain about whose mistake and how did it happen?
ReplyDeleteIt's by no means established in evidence that the rebels had the capability to bring down a high flying aircraft or that they had reason to suspect Ukrainian military aircraft were attacking them from that altitude, let alone that they did it.
It is even less remote that the missile was launched from Russian territory and I don't believe anyone is claiming that, although the narrative in the Western media has been "Putin did it," with no evidence cited. That lead to the desired result of imposing sanctions on Russia, even though European economies will be disadvantaged by it.
On the other hand there seems to be credible evidence that the Ukrainian military did have such a capability deployed in the region. In addition, there are also gaps in the evidence on the Ukrainian side, like the control tower tapes and logs concerning the movements of MH17, that create suspicion that the government is not being straightforward or that it was a rogue operation. The neo-Nazi Ukrainian nationalists fighting in the Eastern Ukraine against the pro-Russian insurgents seem to be at least to some extent rogue.
Of course, the US-NATO may have evidence they haven't released but that remains to be seen.
So lots of questions still up in the air.
There has certainly not been enough evidence forthcoming to justify a rush to judgment over who is at fault. US actions in this regard just create suspicion of fixing the narrative to get out in front and control the story with the spin.
Mistake is the simplest and most obvious answer but questions still remain about whose mistake and how did it happen?
ReplyDeleteI agree with that completely, Tom. Critics of the official Washington story would do well to concentrate on what facts have and have not been established, rather than constructing grand narratives about all of the nefarious conspiracies that might be true.
Why the stories are interesting as far as I am concerned is not the conclusions drawn but the evidence put on the table.
ReplyDeleteIntelligence is about gleaning clues from all possible sources and from every possible angle, analyzing it, and then evaluating it. It's like doing a jigsaw puzzle with many of the pieces as yet missing.
"Critics of the official Washington story "
ReplyDeleteExactly what is that story?
What I see is a insinuation that Putin somehow (not specified) was involved in the "terrorists" in Eastern Ukraine doing intentionally shooting down a plane they knew to be a civilian aircraft.
Tom we are not going to divulge sources and methods (btw you should realize this imo....) to appease a bunch of borderline paranoid conspiracy theorists...
ReplyDeletersp,
For instance Tom, we have revealed that we can hit a component of a system traveling at 17,000 mph up there here:
ReplyDelete"Cartwright says officials also "have a high degree of confidence" — though are not ready to say for sure — that the missile launched from a Navy ship near Hawaii struck the satellite's fuel tank."
http://www.nbcnews.com/id/23265613/ns/technology_and_science-space/t/navy-says-missile-smashed-wayward-satellite/
ok THAT has been revealed..... but not what the borderline paranoid are looking for in these MH17 events... THAT will not be revealed... and with good reason imo...
rsp,
Tom "do the math":
ReplyDeletehttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Ce6Pk_0TNE
This is the problem with much of the lack of transparency and "take it on faith we wouldn't lie to you" attitude of the government that can be used to justify anything it wishes to. It's essentially the descent into dictatorship, which is what a lot of the political kerfuffle is about these days, especially since this was used to sell the lies that created fear and justified the Iraq debacle that is far from over yet. That argument is just bullshit.
ReplyDeleteTom you should know how it works and we are NOT going to give this stuff up...
ReplyDeleteLook, I didnt even vote for this golfer ersatz "President" but I can understand how he has to operate in this situation... you have to trust him if you voted for him imo... I didnt even vote for this guy and I can believe him here or at least understand what he is protecting....
rsp,
"sources and methods"
ReplyDeleteI fell for that once - more than once. Never again. WMDs. Aluminum tubes.
You have the failure to hold the government to account for making shit up to blame for having to deal with paranoiacs.
Hopefully no one is making the claim that sources and methods will be revealed in the content of MH17 flight and voice recorders. Analysis of the content is required to tell us what to think. Truth and transparency are served by dumping the full content right away. That hasn't happened.
Facts, evidence and history indicate to me that it's plausible that there is damning evidence on the MH17 recorders. All the aggressive talk stopped once these were secured. Now it's completely out of the news cycle.
Matt, At the time of the manufactured Gulf of Tonkin crisis I was in the vicinity at the time and suspected it was untrue, or at least that not the whole truth was being told, at the time, only to learn not long afterward that my suspicion was correct.
ReplyDeleteThere was not only a false flag but also there was a cover-up from Congress at time of the subsequent investigation.
Since then I have believed nothing, zip, zero. Trust no one in power anywhere.
Jeff Islam is lucky they had a "born again" in there who felt he had to "justify" whatever we did in the first place...
ReplyDeleteThey are lucky they dont have 100M dead... based on historic comparisons...
Same thing for the Gulf of Tomkin Tom why do these people feel they have to lie to "justify" these things?
The problem is "justification" in the first place...
If Islam came over here and killed 3,000 of our US non-warriors on US soil while the Japanese came to a US territory and killed less than that number of actual warriors which resulted in nuking of Japan why do we have to "justify" anything?
They are lucky W was a "born again" so-called and the left thinks he was out of line... by historic comparisons he was too soft by any measure...
rsp,
Matt
ReplyDeleteThat is a strange reply. I would not understand it was a reply to me or my comment if you hadn't addressed me by name.
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteJeff,
ReplyDelete"WMDs, aluminum tubes"... that is what W/Cheney used to "justify" the Iraq thing... W probably did it because Saddam tried to assassinate his father if the truth be known...
Look, after 9/11/2001, draw a line from Morocco to northern Pakistan and any living thing within 500 mi. of that line on either side is fair game... by historic comparison...
Not saying "this is the right thing to do".... but as Tom says, "history has a liberal bias...." and that statement applies here imo... our response against Islam was muted imo... was related to petroleum imo...
Bush/Cheney -> OIL
Islam -> OIL
They think we are compromised....
rsp
Matt,
ReplyDeleteIt doesn't matter why lies were presented as fact. The result is paranoiacs and the easy grounds for dismissal of evidence presented by the government.
Back to the question at hand, why wasn't I listening to the voice data recording three weeks ago once the free world got their hands on it? Why am I not listening to it now? If there is any conclusive evidence presented once it is finally released, why is it believable?
Jeff I'm not sure if the flight recorder is going to be revealing in this instance... civilian airliners dont have the necessary systems installed...
ReplyDeleteWe will not reveal this data it is too sensitive... get over it... trust the President I assume you voted for... I didnt even vote for this guy who golfs in one month more than I have golfed in the last 15 years... (and btw I like to golf!!!)
rsp,
Jeff the voice recorder will probably reveal that the cabin crew was talking about how attractive the flight attendants were and then nothing...
ReplyDeletersp,
Jeff look at the video in the link I put in a comment above...
ReplyDeleteWe dont know what happened because the meteor had a "recorder" installed....
rsp,
Matt,
ReplyDeleteI didn't vote for our nation's golfer, but the implication of your statement is that we had the opportunity to vote for someone trustworthy and we didn't.
Seriously?
I agree about the voice recorder likely revealing nothing. But that would be revealing.
The plane diverted, so hearing no conversation regarding this would be cause for suspicion. The ATC recordings were confiscated and have not been released.
For "sources and methods" reasons I'm sure.