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Monday, November 2, 2015
Phil Butler — Good Morning Damascus: Damascus Vietnam!
Another quagmire in the making? Phil Butler gives his reasons for thinking so. There's a good chance he is right.
Hey Tom what if the Russians/Assad carve out security zones within Syria and then Lebanon for Orthodox Christians to live safely? Then we see some actually start to move back in there with Russian/Syrian protection....
I could see the Dominionists and the John Hagee wing heads explode if thats the way this turned out....
That has been Assad's policy. He managed to arrange a secular state in which Muslims, Druze, Aramaic Christians, Latin Christians, and Orthodox Christians got along.
Nice to know that the widespread use of torture in Syria was for a good cause.
The situation in Syria is similar to that in many other traditional societies that are artificial constructs often of Western power, like Sykes-Picot. Nation states were formed rather arbitrarily in spite of ethnicity instead of because of it, as it Europe. The only way to hold these nation states together is by force, and that has been the way it has been done in most of these places.
The US, KSA (Kingdom of Saudi Arabia, Turkey, and Israel want to partition these state along ethnic lines, thereby weakening them regionally, allowing the these countries to dominate the region.
Russia, China, and Iran are opposed to any partitioning since they are next on the list to be partitioned. They are arguing on the basis of the Peace of Westphalia that established the modern nation state and national sovereignty, international law based on it, and the UN Charter than guarantees it. They are further arguing that the US and NATO are violating international law, whereas they are upholding it against this brazen attack on it.
This is foundational to what is going on at the surface level and the outcome will shape the world order in the future. It's not possible to grasp the dynamic without understanding this and it is not being reported in the Western media, for obvious reasons.
Moreover, it is rather pointless to argue over who the monsters in this global game are when they are all ghouls with blood on their hands and running from their mouths, and that includes the US NATO nations, and Israel, too, as it was for Imperial Britain. The historical record is drenched in blood, intrigue and treachery.
Tom says - "They are arguing on the basis of the Peace of Westphalia that established the modern nation state and national sovereignty, international law based on it, and the UN Charter than guarantees it."
Tom says - "They are arguing on the basis of the Peace of Westphalia that established the modern nation state and national sovereignty, international law based on it, and the UN Charter than guarantees it."
Pardon me, were you talking about Ukraine?
This is a problem for the Westphalian-UN side, since the UN also establishes the principle of self-determination. The Russian argument is that the Crimean people voted to join Russia iaw this right of self-determination, after an illegal coup of the democratically elected government of Ukraine.
Of course, the same argument could be applied to the Kurds establishing a Kurdish state, but Syria, Turkey, Iraq, and Iran would not be in accord with that, since they would all lose territory.
Similar with the Muslim Uighaus in Western China. Then there are the indigenous peoples of the Australia, the Americas, NZ, and Africa, too.
This is going to be strongly emergent theme based on liberalism. Of course, that brings up the question about why the Confederacy was not allowed to secede from the Union but returned by force.
Again the paradoxes of liberalism where in the past these matters were determined by force, as was the US Civil War.
There are not straightforward answers here and the issues are complicated by competing interest attempting to use liberal principles to get their way.
Well I think it is fairly straightforward that Crimea would be under occupation by the Ukrainian military if they did not have the means to defend themselves.
Your examples illustrate how relatively straightforward hypocrisy is.
Putin is ruthless but is better than what the Russians had before, when the West started it's free raiding exercise and indirectly massacred a big part of the Russian population after the collapse of the USSR dismantling it's structure and through neo-liberal hitmen, and it's actually moderate/liberal compared to other elements on the state so is containing.
Compare this to the stupid western elites be them war hawks who are looking all the time at not containing but starting conflicts or neo-liberals who do not care about their own population just about more free raiding. Is not so much Putin love here but that our elites look awful when compared to them, similar scenario for China and other nations.
To be a leader in most societies means being able to be ruthless in one way or another. Accusing leaders of being ruthless is for the most part silly. Sure, there may have been some that were/are more over the top than others, but to be a leader one has to be willing to "do what it takes" to win. This is reason that "good guys" don't get selected.
That won't happen without a transformation of the level of collective consciousness.
How many Americans will die in Syria compared to Vietnam?
ReplyDeleteIt is indeed a quagmire, in terms of having to wipe other people's blood off your hands.
I watched the video of Senator Graham... he sure was chomping at the bit.
ReplyDeleteHey Tom what if the Russians/Assad carve out security zones within Syria and then Lebanon for Orthodox Christians to live safely? Then we see some actually start to move back in there with Russian/Syrian protection....
ReplyDeleteI could see the Dominionists and the John Hagee wing heads explode if thats the way this turned out....
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siberia_Airlines_Flight_1812
ReplyDeleteTom, look at this.
Random,
ReplyDeleteThere was an admission of guilt. Doesn't look like that will happen this time.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/nov/02/turkeys-elections-campaign-unfair-say-international-monitors
ReplyDeleteTurkey.
That has been Assad's policy. He managed to arrange a secular state in which Muslims, Druze, Aramaic Christians, Latin Christians, and Orthodox Christians got along.
ReplyDeleteNice to know that the widespread use of torture in Syria was for a good cause.
The situation in Syria is similar to that in many other traditional societies that are artificial constructs often of Western power, like Sykes-Picot. Nation states were formed rather arbitrarily in spite of ethnicity instead of because of it, as it Europe. The only way to hold these nation states together is by force, and that has been the way it has been done in most of these places.
ReplyDeleteThe US, KSA (Kingdom of Saudi Arabia, Turkey, and Israel want to partition these state along ethnic lines, thereby weakening them regionally, allowing the these countries to dominate the region.
Russia, China, and Iran are opposed to any partitioning since they are next on the list to be partitioned. They are arguing on the basis of the Peace of Westphalia that established the modern nation state and national sovereignty, international law based on it, and the UN Charter than guarantees it. They are further arguing that the US and NATO are violating international law, whereas they are upholding it against this brazen attack on it.
This is foundational to what is going on at the surface level and the outcome will shape the world order in the future. It's not possible to grasp the dynamic without understanding this and it is not being reported in the Western media, for obvious reasons.
Moreover, it is rather pointless to argue over who the monsters in this global game are when they are all ghouls with blood on their hands and running from their mouths, and that includes the US NATO nations, and Israel, too, as it was for Imperial Britain. The historical record is drenched in blood, intrigue and treachery.
Bob said...
ReplyDeleteNice to know that the widespread use of torture in Syria was for a good cause.
Syria used to be one of the USA/CIA's most coveted stopovers for alleged bad guys. How things have changed.....
In the words of former CIA agent Robert Baer: "If you want a serious interrogation, you send a prisoner to Jordan. If you want them to be tortured, you send them to Syria. If you want someone to disappear -- never to see them again -- you send them to Egypt."
https://www.aclu.org/fact-sheet-extraordinary-rendition
Syria used to be one of the USA/CIA's most coveted stopovers for alleged bad guys. How things have changed.....
ReplyDeleteNo one is irreplaceable when it comes to geopolitics. Saddam went from being 'our man in Baghdad' to swinging from the end of a noose.
I think partition would be better for the peoples of the middle east. Better to be dominated than to be dead?
Tom says - "They are arguing on the basis of the Peace of Westphalia that established the modern nation state and national sovereignty, international law based on it, and the UN Charter than guarantees it."
ReplyDeletePardon me, were you talking about Ukraine?
Too funny.
Bob - you'll get no love here in the Church of Putin.
ReplyDeleteOf course Assad only tortured because of Amerika!
Smart MMT here though.
Isn't this the zionist ideal map of the middle east all neatly divided along the cultural lines to keep everyone divided along historical borders?
ReplyDeleteTom says - "They are arguing on the basis of the Peace of Westphalia that established the modern nation state and national sovereignty, international law based on it, and the UN Charter than guarantees it."
ReplyDeletePardon me, were you talking about Ukraine?
This is a problem for the Westphalian-UN side, since the UN also establishes the principle of self-determination. The Russian argument is that the Crimean people voted to join Russia iaw this right of self-determination, after an illegal coup of the democratically elected government of Ukraine.
Of course, the same argument could be applied to the Kurds establishing a Kurdish state, but Syria, Turkey, Iraq, and Iran would not be in accord with that, since they would all lose territory.
Similar with the Muslim Uighaus in Western China. Then there are the indigenous peoples of the Australia, the Americas, NZ, and Africa, too.
This is going to be strongly emergent theme based on liberalism. Of course, that brings up the question about why the Confederacy was not allowed to secede from the Union but returned by force.
Again the paradoxes of liberalism where in the past these matters were determined by force, as was the US Civil War.
There are not straightforward answers here and the issues are complicated by competing interest attempting to use liberal principles to get their way.
ReplyDeleteYes. Tribalism rules.
Well I think it is fairly straightforward that Crimea would be under occupation by the Ukrainian military if they did not have the means to defend themselves.
ReplyDeleteYour examples illustrate how relatively straightforward hypocrisy is.
Bob - you'll get no love here in the Church of Putin.
ReplyDeleteFinding love is hard work, and singing to the choir gets boring. No worries.
Putin is ruthless but is better than what the Russians had before, when the West started it's free raiding exercise and indirectly massacred a big part of the Russian population after the collapse of the USSR dismantling it's structure and through neo-liberal hitmen, and it's actually moderate/liberal compared to other elements on the state so is containing.
ReplyDeleteCompare this to the stupid western elites be them war hawks who are looking all the time at not containing but starting conflicts or neo-liberals who do not care about their own population just about more free raiding. Is not so much Putin love here but that our elites look awful when compared to them, similar scenario for China and other nations.
To be a leader in most societies means being able to be ruthless in one way or another. Accusing leaders of being ruthless is for the most part silly. Sure, there may have been some that were/are more over the top than others, but to be a leader one has to be willing to "do what it takes" to win. This is reason that "good guys" don't get selected.
ReplyDeleteThat won't happen without a transformation of the level of collective consciousness.