Clarification: I will use "libertarian" to signify the spectrum of libertarianism from left to right. Thick and thin Libertarianism apply to a controversy over this distinction now in progress on the right, which is the subject of David Henderson's post cited below.
Thin Libertarians hold that the non-aggression principle is sufficient politically for socio-economic organization to function efficiently and effectively. Thick Libertarians hold that it is insufficient and further principles or recognition of rights is required to obviate non-violent oppression.
Thin Libertarians are ultra-right. Thick Libertarians are also on the right wing but ther are considered left-leaning by thin Libertarians. For example, Murray Rothbard represents thin Libertarianism, whereas Friedrich Hayek falls into the thick category since he regard some social welfare as necessary in implementing a good society owing to imperfections. Thin Libertarians reject this a a compromise that would stand in the way of ever achieving their ideal of the withering away of the state by depriving the state of authority.
The libertarians of the left are also "thick" libertarians in this sense. holding that people are superior to property and therefore human rights and civil rights take precedence over property rights. This is a chief distinction between left and right libertarianism.
The libertarians of the left share some common ground with thick Libertarians but not with thin Libertarians. But all libertarians of whatever strip agree in opposing any imposition of authoritarianism that impinges on individual rights. Were libertarians disagree is over what constitutes the rights of individuals.
There is a further disagreement over the basis for rights. Since the demise of theocracy, which viewed everything as proceeding from a divine source, there has been an effort to find a necessary basis for right that is natural rather not supernatural. During the period of the Enlightenment, this initially led to the substitution of so-called natural rights for divinely endowed rights, although the Declaration of Independence asserted a theological basis for man's "inalienable" rights.
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed...Thomas Paine penned The Rights of Man, published 1701-1792. Paine argued that rights are established by Nature; hence, they are necessary and absolute rather than contingent and relative. Popular sovereignty arises from individual sovereignty, and a legitimate government is the outcome of the choice of free individuals. The purpose of a government chosen through popular soverignty is guaranteeing "inalienable" rights of individuals as free citizens rather than as subjects.
However, the conception of "natural" has become much more narrowly defined in the interim to mean having a scientific (empirical) basis. No solid scientific basis for so-called natural rights on naturalistic grounds has been forthcoming, for example, from evolutionary biology, anthropology or sociology. Therefore, some cohorts of libertarians have modified the natural rights justification and locate the practical basis of rights institutionally in law, while grounding the basis of law and other political institutions in popular sovereignty — government of the people, by the people and for the people.
This is not to say that there is no scientific basis at all for natural rights, just that the basis is as yet insufficient to ground the complex concept of right that has emerged in law. However, law grew out of custom and custom out of convention, and presumably conventions arose and persisted because they conferred advantages, such as the ability to cooperate and organize. Research in the life sciences is showing that a sense of fairness ("equity," free rider problem) and the ability to coordinate behavior toward shared goals (cooperation, organization) arise early in the evolutionary process.
It can be argued that the concept of right is emergent evolutionarily owing to the comparative advantage it conveys. Capitalism based on economic liberalism and representative democracy based on social and political liberalism seem to provide such advantage from the historical perspective, and this may be an emergent trait, although this is far from being clearly understood now.
Socially and politically, libertarianism (right and left) is a rising trend, and it is far more complex than many realize. The future belongs to liberalism since humans value freedom extremely highly on the spectrum of valuation. Now the details are in the process of being hashed out. What is emerging is a range of libertarianism and liberalism with left and right extremes. The current debate is often framed in black and white and instead of many shades of grey. That is beginning to change as the debate matures and previously dominant ideologies begin to lose force.
EconLog
Richard Ebeling on "Thick Libertarianism"
David Henderson
15 comments:
"Thin Libertarians are ultra-right, while thin Libertarians are left-leaning.. Libertarians of the left are all thin libertarians, Libertarians of the left share some common ground with thick Libertarians but not with thin Libertarians"
?
Yes, very confusing.
Libertarianism is complex with many flavors. It's only confusing if one has a stereotyped notion of it. Same with.liberalism. There is an extensive body of literature on this dating back at least to Lao Tzu's Tao Te Ching (Dao De Jing).
"Libertarianism" is now taken to mean (in the US) the political position that asserts individual sovereignty, an absolute right to property, and a social compact based solely on the non-aggression principle. That is a small subset of those that have self-identified as libertarian. The first known use of term "libertarian" was in 1789. There have been and are many varieties of libertarianism. The term "Libertarianism" (capitalized) only appeared recently and it designated Rothbard's version.
"One gratifying aspect of our rise to some prominence is that, for the first time in my memory, we, 'our side,' had captured a crucial word from the enemy... 'Libertarians'... had long been simply a polite word for left-wing anarchists, that is for anti-private property anarchists, either of the communist or syndicalist variety. But now we had taken it over..."
— Murray Rothbard, The Betrayal of the American Right, p. 83 (from the Wikipedia article cited above".
Now self-identified Libertarians are arguing over whether one can properly be called a Libertarian if one is not a "thin," i.e., Rothbardian, Libertarian. Rothbardians say no and they reject the thin/thick distinction. There is considerable infighting on the right over these distinctions, with Mises-Rothbardian Libertarians distancing themselves from Friedman Libertarians, Hayek Libertarians, Randians, and assorted "thick" Libertarians that do not hold the non-aggression principle to be sufficient.
Conversely, left libertarians are pushing back against thin Libertarians appropriation of the term "libertarian" as their own, citing long historical precedent.
maybe 'right-wing libertarian' is clearer?
Never let a right-wing libertarian pretend that his political ideology is not right-wing and it's not political.
I would say rather, Never let anyone pretend that their political stance is not ideological.
This is what naturalism as justification in is all about. If something is natural, it is not simply a contingent POV. It is necessary in the sense that it is the way things actually are. Which is to say, it is factual rather than ideological and positive rather than normative or prescriptive.
This is a pretty standard move in ideological argument. But proving that something is natural rather then assumed or asserted to be such is hard part. No one has succeeded in it so as to be either logically compelling or factually verifiable. Usually such arguments generalize from too limited a sample.
Maybe when science comes up with a compressive theory of everything that is consistently borne out in experience, it will be possible. But that does not seem to be in the offing.
Moreover, given complex adaptive systems involving reflexivity and emergence, there is a limit to human knowledge since there is not only no guarantee the future will resemble the past closely, let alone replicate it. And there is good reason to think the future of humanity will very different in important respects as the level of collective consciousness becomes more universal.
As some existentialists point out, humans are not only free to choose, but condemned to choose, and many of the best-intended choices have unexpected consequences.
Another way of putting it that the organisms adapting to challenges creates new and often greater challenges.
This is part of what I term a "libertarian civil war" that people who can reckon authority are swept up in..
We have the monetary system back, lets let these morons trash each other and then move in for the rest of it...
rsp
That's right. Our 40-year-long support for gay marriage and freedom for transsexuals, drag queens, meth cookers, heroin sellers and draft dodgers certainly marks us as "right wing".
lets let these morons trash each other
This is coming from a person who cannot even conceptualize the simple notion of the non-aggression principle.
"Our 40-year-long support for gay marriage and freedom for transsexuals, drag queens, meth cookers, heroin sellers and draft dodgers certainly marks us as "right wing"."
You don't support those things, you liar. In the typical right-wing libertarian's ideal community they would all be banned.
It's no coincidence that right-wing "libertarians" are often homophobic and racist.
“what true libertarians cannot emphasize enough, is that the restoration of private property rights and laissez-faire economics implies a sharp and drastic increase in social ‘discrimination’ and will swiftly eliminate most if not all of the multicultural-egalitarian life style experiments so close to the heart of left libertarians. In other words, libertarians must be radical and uncompromising conservatives.”
Hoppe, Democracy - The God That Failed: 207-08
“In a covenant...among proprietor and community tenants for the purpose of protecting their private property, no such thing as a right to free (unlimited) speech exists… There can be no tolerance toward democrats and communists in a libertarian social order. They will have to be physically separated and removed from society. Likewise… the advocates of alternative, non-family and kin-centred lifestyles such as, for instance, individual hedonism, parasitism, nature-environment worship, homosexuality, or communism–will have to be physically removed from society, too, if one is to maintain a libertarian order”.
Hoppe, Democracy - The God That Failed: p.218
"This is coming from a person who cannot even conceptualize the simple notion of the non-aggression principle"
You're the one who doesn't understand the non-aggression principle, moron.
Tom, in my quote from your text above, you use Libertarian to mean left-libertarian (in the first sentence). Then you have Libertarian at the beginning of a sentence twice, so it's unclear if you really mean Libertarian or libertarian. So it's pretty confusing.
Ok, I'll fix that in the post.
You were right, y. Thanks. I made quite a few changes to clear it up. Hopefully it reads better now.
“In a covenant...among proprietor and community tenants for the purpose of protecting their private property, no such thing as a right to free (unlimited) speech exists…
Libertarianism: the tyranny of the Home Owner's Association
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