Now right on cue to follow up Mike's post this am on the corruption involved in the distribution of locally scarce gasoline supplies: Prostitution and blackmail. Story at CBS NY.
Stories of price gouging and fights at gas stations have also been commonplace. But now it seems people — men in particular — are finding new ways to take advantage of gas-seeking Tri-State residents: Sex.The events taking place in the aftermath of this storm give us a glimpse into the anarcho-libertarian (ie slavertarian) idea of paradise.
Police: Freeport Firefighter Charged With Arson After Setting Cars On Fire While Trying To Siphon Fuel
ReplyDeletehttp://newyork.cbslocal.com/2012/11/06/police-freeport-firefighter-charged-with-arson-after-setting-cars-on-fire-while-trying-to-siphon-fuel/
Bob,
ReplyDeleteThey have the craigslist screenshots right on their webpage there at CBS/NY, nobody is making anything up here... these are news reports.
Mike's post this morning linked to media reports with eyewitness accounts of corruption in gasoline distribution to preferred entities... nobody is lying here...
This is the place where out of control libertarianism and a rejection of public purpose gets you... chaos. rsp,
Do you get the feeling that libertarians are realizing their 15 minutes are up?
ReplyDeleteIf you people had an argument or an ounce of integrity, you'd be able to differentiate voluntary behavior from coercive behavior and know that voluntary cooperation has nothing to do with a so called lack of "public purpose". Or that behavior coerced by nanny staters with guns, SWAT teams and prisons actually represents "public purpose".
ReplyDeleteBob, go spend a week in the hotbed of libertarian virtue, Somalia, and try posting your comments from there. LOL.
ReplyDeleteSo are you saying that if some desperate woman agrees to have sex with one of these perverts in return for some gasoline, then she is doing that "voluntarily"?
ReplyDeletersp,
This is exactly the liberty of local bullies you get when it's every man for himself.
ReplyDelete"So are you saying that if some desperate woman agrees to have sex with one of these perverts in return for some gasoline, then she is doing that "voluntarily"?"
ReplyDeleteThat applies only to alter boys, scouts, and football camp attendees?
So we see how well would "libertarianism" work.
ReplyDeleteBut what is even better is see how the modern world would crumble without oil, this IMO is a biggest threat in the future than Roddis types slaving others 'freely'.
And a threat that has to be solved, keeping importing oil (increasing commerical deficits) in exchange of fiat is not a solution.
So are you saying that if some desperate woman agrees to have sex with one of these perverts in return for some gasoline, then she is doing that "voluntarily"?
ReplyDeleteI think it would best be called a black market transaction. The reason that there is no gas for sale is the anti-gouging price control regime which is not the free market. But under any price control regime, there will be shortages. If a woman is foolish enough to offer sex for scarce gas caused by the anti-free market price control regime, it is ultimately her voluntary decision to do so, as foolish and short sighted as that might be.
What are you saying? Should we shoot her? Should we shoot the guy with the gas? You statists are always so hopelessly naive and stupid about the practicalities of enforcing your all-encompassing rules.
ha bob cracks me up, so a woman who agrees to sex-for-gas is doing it "voluntarily"? haha, for all you know the seller might be only "accepting" sex from women only? and wouldn't make a difference how much money they would be paying. there's your free-market for you in a nutshell.
ReplyDeleteUnless the seller had a gun to her head, the transaction was "voluntary" as that word is defined no matter how loathsome the transaction might be which is another subject altogether. That's how it is with you lunatic "progressives". The entire English language must be destroyed to advance your totalitarian beliefs. Like saying government deficits are necessary for "saving".
ReplyDeleteGo for it. It doesn't hurt my feelings when you act in such a desperate manner.
Bob,
ReplyDeleteI'm saying that with 20 million people at least unemployed and our industrial capacity utilization running at like 70%, govt economic policy makers could have been for years now been working on federally financed public energy infrastructure upgrades that would have by now limited this type of naturally caused chaos to about a 24-48 hour event ...
and instead of someone advertising for a submission to blackmail, due to a crappy energy infrastructure not being able to deliver, those in need of energy from gasoline would just be able to go buy it from an abundantly supplied resilient marketplace....
rsp,
Well then. Since we disagree about the cause of mass unemployment and the desperate times that brings, it would be quite fruitful if we constantly blamed each other for causing desperate women to sell their bodies in order to live, right? It's your fault. No, it's your fault. No it's your fault. I know you are, but what am I?
ReplyDeleteYou know that Austrians are at least as upset about mass unemployment as you are, right? You know that Hayek won the Nobel Prize for his work on the Austrian Business Cycle Theory which explains why there is mass unemployment, how to end it and how to prevent it, right?
bob you are an extremist, your ideas of "free-markets" laws of the jungle, dog eat dog, social Darwinist have been applied and unanimously rejected by the civilised world. what you advocate for is imbalanced, i.e. the seller is free to do what they like, while the consumers are exploited. that's basically what it comes down to, I have a view which is somewhat milder middle of the road view than yours; I recognise that free capital movement in the gears of the economy is good, I recognise there are shortcomings in this philosophy thus I see, the rights of the consumers as equally to the sellers. of course you're too caught up in your ideology than recognising those shortcomings which can lead to disastrous social and economic consequences.
ReplyDeleteBob,
ReplyDeletethere are things you have in common with MMT as far as not being satisfied with the current chaos for sure...
but Bob, imo sorry you are naive in your belief that govt needs to "get out of the way", that policy allows the wolves to come in like we see here in the wake of this storm and previously preceeding the GFC...
Think about striking a "balance" between this moron facilitated "free market" chaos (that outcomes of which we both hate) and appropriate levels of regulation and public purpose...
also, try to get some confidence back in humanity it seems that you think (btw not without some compelling examples/reasons you often provide) we all are just not capable of self governance without overstepping authority and/or govt corruption.... we CAN do this imo... but it will require moron eradication first...
rsp,
Bob,
ReplyDeleteCan you help me understand something?…
Would there be any "public" land in the world you'd like to see? Or would all land be someone's prvate property?
Quote: "Unless the seller had a gun to her head, the transaction was "voluntary" as that word is defined no matter how loathsome the transaction might be which is another subject altogether."
ReplyDeleteSpoken like a true Slavertarian and "Evil Bob Roddis" has proven my thesis that Libertarian is nothing more than hated of women and the weak. Since Bob defends essentially the raping of women if is "voluntary exchange." Let's just hope Bob's wife doesn't end up stranded cause Bob won't seem to care if some rapist by opportunity happened to come around.
No matter how much human dignity someone must alienate if the exchange is "voluntary" just like the voluntary hand over of the right of self rule to a the monarch, Bob's says it's freedom cause it is "voluntary."
Sex Slavery is Freedom, Military service is freedom, being cruelly exploited when you have no other choices is freedom.
It is Bob who doesn't one gram of integrity when claiming that getting "voluntary" consent is all that matters without consideration of levels of personal and moral responsibility to respect human dignity.
It is time call Libertarianism what it is. Like Bob, it has no principles, sense of self respect, or honor. It is pure class based hated of the poor and the less fortunate who would be forced to endure anything under the lying and amoral framework
voluntarism which always has been the default defense of racism, sexism, tribalism, and slavery.
Libertarians are a hate group. They have no reason, only pure hate. Men like Bob are the reason my governments must exist. Only righteous violence against psychopath exploiters protected by human garbage like Bob Robbis can ever humanity hold back those have nothing of the their irrational will of hate and contempt for humanity.
The only moral response to unjust exploitation is moral violence. Mankind's greatest problem are folks like Bob Robbis believe they doing good by protecting evil men from righteous anger and the violence of necessary justice.
His place in hell is most deserved.
septeus7:
ReplyDeleteYou are such a dishonest moron. The fact that an act is "voluntary" does not make it "ok", merely that a third party may not initiate force to stop it. The initiation of force and the prohibition of fraud are the only things that libertarianism as libertarianism are concerned with. If you can get the rest of society to sanction what you see as bad behavior employing any method that does not involve the initiation of force, go for it.
http://www.lewrockwell.com/rothbard/rothbard12.html
"merely that a third party may not initiate force to stop it. The initiation of force and the prohibition of fraud are the only things that libertarianism as libertarianism are concerned with."
ReplyDeleteBob, no one is proposing an initiation of force to stop this proposed transaction here, rather the idea is that if govt pursued expanded public purpose (at least during times such as these when massive surplus labor is available) then chaotic conditions would be avoided, and a more productive economy would result...
You even allow for "prohibition of fraud" so think of this like "prohibition of chaos"... both have to be "prohibited" via authority of civil govt...so how come allowance for one and not the other?
btw, having OPEC in the world and moron people who at the same time say it's a "free market" is combined a fraudulent operation...
rsp
having OPEC in the world and moron people who at the same time say it's a "free market" is combined a fraudulent operation...
ReplyDeleteYou are right. No libertarian would call a world of OPEC and US government support for those dictatorships a "free market". When have you found a single libertarian or Austrian who wasn't anal-compulsive and obsessive about the precise definitions of "free market" "coercion" and/or "voluntary association"? Or the difference between crony capitalism and laissez faire?
We ALWAYS know the differences between those concepts and ALWAYS apply them correctly. Read all 900+ pages of "Human Action", a relentless attack on every conceivable type of government interference in the market. We know the difference.
http://mises.org/Books/humanaction.pdf
the idea is that if govt pursued expanded public purpose (at least during times such as these when massive surplus labor is available) then chaotic conditions would be avoided
It was precisely the government interference that subsidized the building on flood plains, that interferes with the provision of supplies through its price controls and impedes the establishment of voluntary rescue associations through its false promise prior to the disaster of providing aid after the disaster. The situation that produced those desperate women is all the fault of you statists who don't understand economics much less the nature of voluntary associations and relationships which are the only way to express and effectuate "public purpose". Threatening people with SWAT teams, fines and prisons (which is the operative functionality of government, by definition) does not tend to produce real and substantive "public purpose" .
Quote from Evil Bob Roddis: "The initiation of force and the prohibition of fraud are the only things that libertarianism as libertarianism are concerned with. If you can get the rest of society to sanction what you see as bad behavior employing any method that does not involve the initiation of force, go for it."
ReplyDeleteSo I don't like fraud but I shouldn't be able lift a finger to stop it cause doing anything to actually stop people from being abused is "initiation of force" except you are more than willing to "initiate force" when protecting "property rights or violently stopping people from forming state or unions to protect themselves such behavior cause you are so superior arbiter of morality , right?
You claim value is subjective except of the value of " don't initiation of force" and "prohibition of fraud" which you alone get to objectivity define for everyone else.
So you get to decide when violence gets used based on your objective understanding of absolute property rights but I need to "If you can get the rest of society to sanction what you see as bad behavior employing any method that does not involve the initiation of force" (unless it is a worker's union, or a State) cause dictator Evil Bob Roddis has the only monopoly violence cause only Bob objectively understands where absolute private property rights begin and ends cause my views are subjective but dictator Evil Bob Roddis opinions are objective so Evil Bob knows what is best without all complexity of politics.
The Libertarian is a living double standard.
I like that you quoted that racist totalitarian thug Murray Rothbard as moral authority. The man denied the holocaust, praised the Khmer Rouge, claimed Hilter saved the German economy in the 1930s, said infanticide was perfectly moral, are well "voluntary" slavery. He loved violence.
Libertarianism is violence.
It is violence against against any rational organization of human society against the irrational will in according to principle. It is violence against the human soul.
You are racist, sexist, violent person who praises and defends violent exploitation of the weak. You are sick souless man.
Here's an example of the libertarian "non violence" Bob Roddis really believes in https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SbnEy_U9pYk. Ask yourself, why these non violence types love them guns so much?
"Bob Roddis said...
ReplyDeleteYou miserable lying bastards. You have nothing.
November 6, 2012 2:17 PM "
Truly impressive reasoning and logic there, bob.
For those interested, check out bob's persuasive response over on another thread:
"Nowhere in anything you have written can one find anything that suggests you have the slightest understanding of acting man and his ignorance, the nature of voluntary exchange and/or the nature of prices as essential information in a world of ignorance. SINCE YOU ARE NOT CONVERSANT IN THOSE BASIC TOPICS, WHY DON'T YOU SHUT UP?
You are a liar and buffoon, LK."
http://mikenormaneconomics.blogspot.com/2012/11/matias-vernengo-confusion-and-failure.html
Curiously, he is still incapable of answering a simple question:
if one can demonstrate that markets have no tendency to any wage and price vector with market-clearing equilibrium prices, and indeed that for many markets there are no such equilibrium prices, it follows that there are no price *distortions* away from something non-existent, doesn't it?
Are you willing to admit that on a theoretical level?
[L]iving precariously in the aftermath of a natural disaster calls to our attention the importance of community and that is something that government at all levels has destroyed. It is true that Garrett County is not New York or New Jersey, as the local culture is not the at-your-throat-all-the-time existence that characterizes that part of the country. Unions are not strong here, which means that after a disaster like what we experienced, people who try to help are not asked to show their union cards, as was the case in the hard-hit areas on the coast.
ReplyDeleteBut the problem is much deeper than just unions, although they are joined at the hip with the worst elements of the State. For all of the "liberal" talk about government and community, in reality, government as it exists now is the very antithesis of community. In a place where community mattered, a post-disaster scenario would see people quickly coming together to pool their resources and talents, assess damage, and work together.
However, the modern scenario is for people not only to wait for government agents (i.e. FEMA) to arrive before they did anything, but also for taking orders and getting supplies. This is not community by any stretch; instead, it is comparable to how people lived in the U.S.S.R. when the communists ruled.
In the 1970s, a large hotel in Moscow caught fire, and the reaction of the residents who came from western countries versus the Soviet Union is eye-catching. Japanese tourists staying there got out by tying sheets together into a life-rope. Americans soaked towels in water to aid them in breathing as they crawled to the exits. All of the "foreigners" escaped and survived.
Russian guests, however, waited for instructions and many of them died. (Logan Robinson recounts this event in his 1982 book, An American in Leningrad.)
What happened in Moscow more than 30 years ago is not much different than what happens in this country after a disaster. Governments at all levels step in, send troops or other people with badges who bark orders and make threats and, after several days, bring supplies for which people must stand in line for hours to receive. Price controls guarantee misallocation of resources, and, not surprisingly, people are at each other’s throats.
http://www.lewrockwell.com/anderson/anderson348.html
So wait...
ReplyDeleteGovernment imposes price controls on gasoline, those price controls induce shortages of gasoline, desperate women sell their bodies to get gasoline, and....that's free markets?
Clueless morons.
Pete:
ReplyDeleteThe real fun and funny action is found here:
http://mikenormaneconomics.blogspot.com/2012/11/matias-vernengo-confusion-and-failure.html?showComment=1352303819133#c3852085981471622249
Pete,
ReplyDeleteSo wait...
Govt positions populated by morons, morons think "we are out of money", electrical distribution infrastructure degrades for decades, 30 year storm hits highly populated coastal area, electricity out for a week, 50% of stations cannot pump gas, local shortages develop, perverts offer gas for sex...
"free market" can do nothing to prevent/solve this...
rsp,
John Carney explains the evils of price controls* to an oblivious horde of MMTers:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.cnbc.com/id/49730752?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter
*aka "economics"
Bob,
ReplyDeleteThe shortage was/is NOT in gasoline... the shortage was in OPERATIVE DISPENSING SYSTEMS!
rsp,
Wow. Everyone should take a deep breadth. Is there any reason to think these posts are anything but a joke? Not that I have a beef against prostitution... it's your body. Who am I to force you from selling it?
ReplyDeleteAnyone have an empirical study on the rate of this kind of thing in non-capitalist countries? It must have been quiet common in the soviet union.
Marris,
ReplyDeleteConsidering the totalitarian proclivities of its advocates, I would say that "Modern Monetary Theory" does not really really have much to do with monetary theory.
Typo:
ReplyDeleteThere should only be one "really" in the post above.
The shortage was/is NOT in gasoline... the shortage was in OPERATIVE DISPENSING SYSTEMS!
ReplyDeleteSo it was the fault of the government granted utility monopoly. No free market there. Your point was?
> The shortage was/is NOT in gasoline... the shortage was in OPERATIVE DISPENSING SYSTEMS!
ReplyDeleteI think working gas stations are A problem. I'm not sure that is the only problem. Looks like the gas station owner here is having trouble getting the gas.
http://online.wsj.com/article/AP522874be0fb2497f82b0fa5a6a6ee7aa.html
New York's Governor Cuomo blasts utilities for Sandy outages:
ReplyDeletehttp://news.yahoo.com/yorks-governor-cuomo-blasts-utilities-sandy-outages-030946156--sector.html
This is in addition to the gas shortages caused by the price controls. Again, this is a failure of regulation and not the free market.
Bob,
ReplyDeleteWhat was stopping the "free market" station owners from having previously installed on site power generation "off the grid" and getting all of the business they can get in times like these??? and PS Cuomo is a moron...
Marris they probably can only schedule a limited amount of deliveries per day... look, this too shall pass, but will govt morons learn anything from this? doubt it.
looks like Cuomo is as usual for our current crop of moron pols is pointing fingers and trying to pass the buck... how about some federal tax credits for station owners to install some off grid generation equipment? I know "we cant afford it!" ..... morons.
rsp,