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OK just when I thought I had seen it all... how does one of the leading right-libertarian people end up accommodating the authoritarian Trump who the left-libertarians refer to as 'fascist'?
Does Alex Jones really believe that Sandy Hook was an elaborate hoax? If that is indeed the case, what the hell is a presidential candidate doing on that freak's show?
Libertarianism and authoritarianism are often just two sides of the same psychological coin. They are both based on a "my way or the highway" sense of entitlement and need for tribal control of threatening Others that characterizes many of the angry, paranoid, narcissistic man-boys who fill our contemporary society.
A lot of the libertarians I know were very authoritarian when Bush was in power: big supporters of John Yoo's conception of the Patriot Act, domestic control, and the imperial presidency and it's supposedly vast powers. Once their tribe was no longer in a position to run things, they suddenly discovered they were libertarians opposed to an out-of-control government.
It just comes down to which tribe's chief is sitting in the big chair. If your own side is out of power, your desire to control things and repel the Others will express itself as a paranoid "Don't tread on me" outlook. If your side is in power, then that same mentality will express itself as an urge to use that power to oppress and control the Others.
Does Alex Jones really believe that Sandy Hook was an elaborate hoax? If that is indeed the case, what the hell is a presidential candidate doing on that freak's show?
Because if he kicked the wingnut freaks and conspiracy-mongers to the curb, his support would dwindle. Those are Trump's peeps.
What we used to call the "lunatic fringe" in America is very mainstream now. Left and right wingnuts of all kind have convinced themselves everything bad that happens is a false flag operation. It seems like Americans are the biggest babies in the world. We can't handle the truth, so we construct elaborate fantasies to maintain the illusion that our psychological safe space is real, and that all evidence to the contrary is part of a plot to deceive us.
But Dan I have to say that the Jones people are all paranoid about "surveillance" and Trump here talks about our need for more surveillance and Jones just lets it pass... Trump is a big 2nd Amendment person so that probably goes a long way with the right-libertarians here....
Greek I've seen Trump on the WWE with Vince McMahon and he probably doesnt think Professional Wrestling is real ... so maybe its like Dan says he'll go where he thinks it will get him votes period... even if he thinks it is "info-tainment"....
But I dont think the Jones people think it is "info-tainment".... I think they are true believers in the whole "false flags", etc... like the policymakers actually know what they are doing....
Many of these libtardians are swing voters, so Trump is doing what all politicians do-- scrounging for votes. But let's be clear, Trump is no libertardian.
Also, he doesn't give a shit about liberals or what their hateful minds dream up regarding their enemies to their right, as they are wed to their ideology like stink is to shit. No changing minds there.
Bob one of the things they do is colloidal silver.... I think they actually ingest it!
there was a guy who turned blue who did too much of this and went over the top ... its actually a thing its called "argyria"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argyria
If you go over there there are all these ads for gold and silver to buy and I think they actually ingest or drink the silver in solution... I'm NOT kidding!
And then the guns are made of metal... (albeit (to them) lesser metals than those in column 11...)
so they have a whole "metals" thing going on over there....
I dunno Dan, wingnuts on the left? There's the loose change crowd, but the wingnuts on the right outnumber them by at least an order of magnitude, if not two or three. I've never heard of a left-wing militia. There's over 300 right-wing militias. Then there's skinheads, neo-nazis, and white supremacists groups with lots of overlap between them. What's the equivalent on the left? Black-bloc anarchists? All 75 people? Eco-terrorists? The number of militias out numbers the number of individual eco-terrorists.
Twenty-five years ago, what was conderisered a liberal to moderate Republican is now called a moderate-to-liberal Democrat, the window has shifted way rightward.
" But I also think it tends to oscillate based on which party is in the White House."
What do you mean here? There has never been a leftward equivalent of the Tea Party/Obama hating/False flag bullshit/domestic terrorist crap we are seeing today. Paranoia is much more a white right wing thing. When you got all the power you are terrified of it being usurped. Conservative white Americans for the most part are terrified little trust funders who want to use guns to settle all grievances. Other than about the lowest 5% of, even poor white Americans were born on third base relative to just about anyone else in the world.
And look at the examples Joe used; Eco terrorists.... they actually have a cause outside of their own fears and safety. They aren't fighting imaginary boogie men coming to take their precious pistols or taxes they are actually trying to make the planet a better place for ALL OF US to live. Do they have members who do some extreme things for their cause? Sure but Ill take that cause over evangelicals trying to get everyone to believe in an afterlife. Black-bloc anarchists.... Im not sure why that is but certainly black lives matter is a left wing group........ trying to stand up to police brutality in their communities.... sounds reasonable to me!
Like "Occupy"... they more or less just "sat there"... or the old "sit-ins" you hear about from the 60s... this is what the left ones do...
Right libertarians take a more active approach.. idk if there is an "active-aggressive" corollary to "passive-aggressive" I never took a Psychology course... seems like there should be...
Trump appeals to a wide swath in this country right now, and pre-2009 political labels don't capture it. Matt, you're from Australia, aren’t you? Swinging tired old 20th C libertarian labels around in this climate won’t cut it. These people feel disaffected and marginalized. Yves Smith featured Political scientist Tom Ferguson about it the other day. Her short prep remarks are valuable, so I’ll link to her. http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2015/12/tom-ferguson-who-is-supporting-trump.html
My personal belief is that Obama created this feeling of being shafted when he refused to hold anyone publicly accountable for September 2008. The feckless reaction of an unseasoned not-ready-for-primetime leader dropping an emotional ball of such global importance seared who he was, and shocked many of us who were seduced by his candidacy. I was one of those suckers, I regret to say.
As soon as he took office, Obama said let bygones be bygones and there's nothing we can legally hold the bankers accountable for, as if ‘moral’ had no import, as if ‘what ought to be done’ was not a national imperative, as if a president did not have the moral mandate to correct such a wrong. This, his response, when not two months earlier, AIG execs and bankers were being taunted with death threats on their Greenwich lawns. Everyone was holding their breath waiting for him to take office to do something about it—because he was so fucking popular--and what does His Imperial Highness do? He sez ‘Let’s not rock the boat.” He spouts some specious letter of the law instead of the spirit of the law, and fails his presidency from the gitgo (imo).
So it was no wonder in Feb 2009 that he drove one small group to buy lawn chairs, straw hats, and teabags at Walmart. Curls of anti-black feelings started to steam up from various parts of the country; that hasn't abided, but grown, and in ugly ways. Every political sprout since then has blossomed from that major, incalculable moral blunder.
And Obama has been morally wrong on every major issue since then…again imo. And the little people know it. You could put his cajones in my salt cellar.
Somehow they think that Trump will listen to them, and do something about it. They’re working two jobs, if working, and don’t have time (after work) or the power to affect change. And after all, if it’s just racism that’s the problem, so what, the attitude is I’ve got to get and protect mine. (What I’ve listened to in terms of racism in the past year has truly shocked me; more than that, deeply affected and repulsed me, but that’s another story.)
@Bob, I remarked on another site that there is a 'French Revolution' character to the Trump phenomenon. Madame LaFarge and all that. Getting the aristocrats outta' here. And that may be what's happening. [90% of my family is Scots-Irish. I hear the arguments all the time. They think I'm waaay too 'libral'.] If Trump wins the primary, this will mark a watershed.
When Bernie Sanders went to the bastion of fundamentalist Christianity, Liberty Univ, to give a speech and entertain a dialogue, where was the outrage? Dan, aren't you a Berniephile?
Moonbats on the left need a primer on how to avoid double standards so they don't come off as horses' asses..
...and as much as ye all try in your invectives, Trump is not a Nazi, fascist, wingnut or whatever else you all dream up. He's going to be your next President too. Honor him :)
These people self-identify as libertarians so that is where I get the label...
2008 could have easily been avoided with competent and qualified people in regulatory positions Mike and Warren (both competent and qualified) would talk about what to do in real time when Mike had his radio show ....
So I dont know why we would still want to do a witch hunt against "banksters" in light of this knowledge...
Macro policy was a disaster and it led to disaster in the economy this should not be surprising...
We need qualified and competent (and imo non-libertarian) people in positions of authority should be the only take-away it would do no good to prosecute "banksters" this is missing the mark and nothing changes going forward...
Its lets the typical Old Testament approach of "borrow >> default >> forgive" play on until the next time... NO THANKS!
Well, Matt, you're certainly right about doing that now. ("So I dont know why we would still want to do a witch hunt against "banksters" in light of this knowledge...")
But at the time—January 20-31, 2009—he blew it. Morally, and optically.
As for the Mike/Warren comments: of course I think you're dead on. I'm a disciple who did hard labor at figuring out what they knew that I didn't and don't.
Alex Jones has changed his tune,Ten years ago he insisted 9/11 was a inside job,he had documentaries and he insisted Osama was a Government phantom and that all the videos were faked.Nows he talking to a presidential candidate about 9/11 and Osama.He's even talking to trump who is calling for surveillance.Ten years ago Alex Jones was screaming that the USA was Surveillance militarised police state and that the government was just about to put everyone in FEMA camps and exterminate everyone for the NWO Globalist Illuminati overclass. Alex Jones is such a phony I wonder how he's kept it (infowars)going seeing as he can no longer say that everything is blackflag terrorism.
@roger wohoa!a US presidential candidate telling the isreali lobby to do one, I'm impressed.
32 comments:
I see two successful businessmen. The only libertarians here are their customers.
Freedom to be fleeced by your betters.
Libertarianism is a con to get the poor to support deregulation and other things that benefit only the oligarchs.
Does Alex Jones really believe that Sandy Hook was an elaborate hoax? If that is indeed the case, what the hell is a presidential candidate doing on that freak's show?
Libertarianism and authoritarianism are often just two sides of the same psychological coin. They are both based on a "my way or the highway" sense of entitlement and need for tribal control of threatening Others that characterizes many of the angry, paranoid, narcissistic man-boys who fill our contemporary society.
A lot of the libertarians I know were very authoritarian when Bush was in power: big supporters of John Yoo's conception of the Patriot Act, domestic control, and the imperial presidency and it's supposedly vast powers. Once their tribe was no longer in a position to run things, they suddenly discovered they were libertarians opposed to an out-of-control government.
It just comes down to which tribe's chief is sitting in the big chair. If your own side is out of power, your desire to control things and repel the Others will express itself as a paranoid "Don't tread on me" outlook. If your side is in power, then that same mentality will express itself as an urge to use that power to oppress and control the Others.
The disturbing thing is that Trump may actually believe what Jones knows is make believe.
Does Alex Jones really believe that Sandy Hook was an elaborate hoax? If that is indeed the case, what the hell is a presidential candidate doing on that freak's show?
Because if he kicked the wingnut freaks and conspiracy-mongers to the curb, his support would dwindle. Those are Trump's peeps.
What we used to call the "lunatic fringe" in America is very mainstream now. Left and right wingnuts of all kind have convinced themselves everything bad that happens is a false flag operation. It seems like Americans are the biggest babies in the world. We can't handle the truth, so we construct elaborate fantasies to maintain the illusion that our psychological safe space is real, and that all evidence to the contrary is part of a plot to deceive us.
Hey, Dan, you sound like a paranoid wingnut yourself, especially in regards to so called Trump wingnut supporters.
There are decaffeinated brands on the market. Give em a go. They'll soothe the skyrocketing blood pressure your wingnut phobia brings on..
good points greek and Dan...
But Dan I have to say that the Jones people are all paranoid about "surveillance" and Trump here talks about our need for more surveillance and Jones just lets it pass... Trump is a big 2nd Amendment person so that probably goes a long way with the right-libertarians here....
Greek I've seen Trump on the WWE with Vince McMahon and he probably doesnt think Professional Wrestling is real ... so maybe its like Dan says he'll go where he thinks it will get him votes period... even if he thinks it is "info-tainment"....
But I dont think the Jones people think it is "info-tainment".... I think they are true believers in the whole "false flags", etc... like the policymakers actually know what they are doing....
Matt,
Many of these libtardians are swing voters, so Trump is doing what all politicians do-- scrounging for votes. But let's be clear, Trump is no libertardian.
Also, he doesn't give a shit about liberals or what their hateful minds dream up regarding their enemies to their right, as they are wed to their ideology like stink is to shit. No changing minds there.
Matt, they are true believers in encouraging other people to give them money. Time for a Deep Cleanse...
"Deep cleanse" LOL!
Bob one of the things they do is colloidal silver.... I think they actually ingest it!
there was a guy who turned blue who did too much of this and went over the top ... its actually a thing its called "argyria"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argyria
If you go over there there are all these ads for gold and silver to buy and I think they actually ingest or drink the silver in solution... I'm NOT kidding!
And then the guns are made of metal... (albeit (to them) lesser metals than those in column 11...)
so they have a whole "metals" thing going on over there....
Argyria. Wow - just wow.
Libertarian candidate Stan Jones:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/2297471.stm
USA politics sometimes looks like a barbarian freak show
Trump, a successful businessman? Then why has he declared bankruptcy 4 times? Sounds more like a failure to me.
There's also analyses showing had he invested his inheritance in an index fund, he's have just as much money. So no, he's not that's successful.
I dunno Dan, wingnuts on the left? There's the loose change crowd, but the wingnuts on the right outnumber them by at least an order of magnitude, if not two or three. I've never heard of a left-wing militia. There's over 300 right-wing militias. Then there's skinheads, neo-nazis, and white supremacists groups with lots of overlap between them. What's the equivalent on the left? Black-bloc anarchists? All 75 people? Eco-terrorists? The number of militias out numbers the number of individual eco-terrorists.
Twenty-five years ago, what was conderisered a liberal to moderate Republican is now called a moderate-to-liberal Democrat, the window has shifted way rightward.
There's the loose change crowd, but the wingnuts on the right outnumber them by at least an order of magnitude, if not two or three.
I agree with that, Joe. But I also think it tends to oscillate based on which party is in the White House.
@Dan
" But I also think it tends to oscillate based on which party is in the White House."
What do you mean here? There has never been a leftward equivalent of the Tea Party/Obama hating/False flag bullshit/domestic terrorist crap we are seeing today. Paranoia is much more a white right wing thing. When you got all the power you are terrified of it being usurped. Conservative white Americans for the most part are terrified little trust funders who want to use guns to settle all grievances. Other than about the lowest 5% of, even poor white Americans were born on third base relative to just about anyone else in the world.
And look at the examples Joe used; Eco terrorists.... they actually have a cause outside of their own fears and safety. They aren't fighting imaginary boogie men coming to take their precious pistols or taxes they are actually trying to make the planet a better place for ALL OF US to live. Do they have members who do some extreme things for their cause? Sure but Ill take that cause over evangelicals trying to get everyone to believe in an afterlife. Black-bloc anarchists.... Im not sure why that is but certainly black lives matter is a left wing group........ trying to stand up to police brutality in their communities.... sounds reasonable to me!
Greg the left libertarians seem more passive and the right libertarians seem more active...
This could be like "passive-aggressive" on the part of the left-libertarians:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passive-aggressive_behavior
Like "Occupy"... they more or less just "sat there"... or the old "sit-ins" you hear about from the 60s... this is what the left ones do...
Right libertarians take a more active approach.. idk if there is an "active-aggressive" corollary to "passive-aggressive" I never took a Psychology course... seems like there should be...
Trump appeals to a wide swath in this country right now, and pre-2009 political labels don't capture it. Matt, you're from Australia, aren’t you? Swinging tired old 20th C libertarian labels around in this climate won’t cut it. These people feel disaffected and marginalized. Yves Smith featured Political scientist Tom Ferguson about it the other day. Her short prep remarks are valuable, so I’ll link to her.
http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2015/12/tom-ferguson-who-is-supporting-trump.html
My personal belief is that Obama created this feeling of being shafted when he refused to hold anyone publicly accountable for September 2008. The feckless reaction of an unseasoned not-ready-for-primetime leader dropping an emotional ball of such global importance seared who he was, and shocked many of us who were seduced by his candidacy. I was one of those suckers, I regret to say.
As soon as he took office, Obama said let bygones be bygones and there's nothing we can legally hold the bankers accountable for, as if ‘moral’ had no import, as if ‘what ought to be done’ was not a national imperative, as if a president did not have the moral mandate to correct such a wrong. This, his response, when not two months earlier, AIG execs and bankers were being taunted with death threats on their Greenwich lawns. Everyone was holding their breath waiting for him to take office to do something about it—because he was so fucking popular--and what does His Imperial Highness do? He sez ‘Let’s not rock the boat.” He spouts some specious letter of the law instead of the spirit of the law, and fails his presidency from the gitgo (imo).
So it was no wonder in Feb 2009 that he drove one small group to buy lawn chairs, straw hats, and teabags at Walmart. Curls of anti-black feelings started to steam up from various parts of the country; that hasn't abided, but grown, and in ugly ways. Every political sprout since then has blossomed from that major, incalculable moral blunder.
And Obama has been morally wrong on every major issue since then…again imo. And the little people know it. You could put his cajones in my salt cellar.
Somehow they think that Trump will listen to them, and do something about it. They’re working two jobs, if working, and don’t have time (after work) or the power to affect change. And after all, if it’s just racism that’s the problem, so what, the attitude is I’ve got to get and protect mine. (What I’ve listened to in terms of racism in the past year has truly shocked me; more than that, deeply affected and repulsed me, but that’s another story.)
If Joe Bageant were still alive, he'd be able to explain the Trump phenomenon.
@Bob, yup.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/today/hi/today/newsid_7600000/7600592.stm
@Bob, I remarked on another site that there is a 'French Revolution' character to the Trump phenomenon. Madame LaFarge and all that. Getting the aristocrats outta' here. And that may be what's happening. [90% of my family is Scots-Irish. I hear the arguments all the time. They think I'm waaay too 'libral'.] If Trump wins the primary, this will mark a watershed.
a weird example of the Trump appeal; strangely coherent at times
https://theintercept.com/2015/12/03/donald-trump-booed-by-pro-israel-group-after-telling-them-he-cant-be-bought/
that's actually an interesting story
When Bernie Sanders went to the bastion of fundamentalist Christianity, Liberty Univ, to give a speech and entertain a dialogue, where was the outrage? Dan, aren't you a Berniephile?
Moonbats on the left need a primer on how to avoid double standards so they don't come off as horses' asses..
...and as much as ye all try in your invectives, Trump is not a Nazi, fascist, wingnut or whatever else you all dream up. He's going to be your next President too. Honor him :)
..And one more thing. All I need do is witness the liberal press in the San Bernardino terrorist massacre to know for certain they are a hopeless lot.
...They being liberals.
MRW,
No I'm in USA (Balt/DC area...)
These people self-identify as libertarians so that is where I get the label...
2008 could have easily been avoided with competent and qualified people in regulatory positions Mike and Warren (both competent and qualified) would talk about what to do in real time when Mike had his radio show ....
So I dont know why we would still want to do a witch hunt against "banksters" in light of this knowledge...
Macro policy was a disaster and it led to disaster in the economy this should not be surprising...
We need qualified and competent (and imo non-libertarian) people in positions of authority should be the only take-away it would do no good to prosecute "banksters" this is missing the mark and nothing changes going forward...
Its lets the typical Old Testament approach of "borrow >> default >> forgive" play on until the next time... NO THANKS!
Well, Matt, you're certainly right about doing that now. ("So I dont know why we would still want to do a witch hunt against "banksters" in light of this knowledge...")
But at the time—January 20-31, 2009—he blew it. Morally, and optically.
As for the Mike/Warren comments: of course I think you're dead on. I'm a disciple who did hard labor at figuring out what they knew that I didn't and don't.
Alex Jones has changed his tune,Ten years ago he insisted 9/11 was a inside job,he had documentaries and he insisted Osama was a Government phantom and that all the videos were faked.Nows he talking to a presidential candidate about 9/11 and Osama.He's even talking to trump who is calling for surveillance.Ten years ago Alex Jones was screaming that the USA was Surveillance militarised police state and that the government was just about to put everyone in FEMA camps and exterminate everyone for the NWO Globalist Illuminati overclass. Alex Jones is such a phony I wonder how he's kept it (infowars)going seeing as he can no longer say that everything is blackflag terrorism.
@roger wohoa!a US presidential candidate telling the isreali lobby to do one, I'm impressed.
@roger,I take that back .I watched the video.
"@roger,I take that back .I watched the video."
Yes, he seemed to start off defiant, and then started hedging his bets.
Still, it's one tiny step in the right direction.
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