Thursday, May 28, 2020

Rebel Wisdom - Conspiracy, Sensemaking & Truth. An Inquiry

Rebel Wisdom take a Jungian look at conspiracy theories. A myth in Jungian psychology doesn't mean something is untrue because it's not historically true: The story, or myth, is symbolic of a greater truth. Millions of people in the West feel they have been lied to by the establishment, so now they don't believe anything they say.

How can we make sense of the enormous changes going on in the landscape right now, as the growing crisis uproots everything we thought we knew.

Rebel Wisdom recently brought out a series of films about conspiracy and sensemaking, around the recent David Icke interviews on the channel London Real. They caused a huge, and hugely polarised reaction.

In this inquiry with Peter Limberg of the Intellectual Explorer's Club, Rebel Wisdom's David Fuller explores the topics raised by the films, and tries to make sense of the deeper questions they raise.



13 comments:

Matt Franko said...

“ myth, is symbolic of a greater truth”

That is not the way that word is used around here... around here it is synonymous with falsehood...

Kaivey said...

Carl Jung considered the Christ story to be a myth. He believed that most of the story was historically untrue, although it conveyed a spirutual truth.

The same for Buddha, which Jung considered to be an archetype, like Christ. The real Buddha may have never existed.

These deep spiritual 'truths' emanate from our psyches, which is why they resonate.

Matt Franko said...

Why doesn’t your government legislative body just bring the people in and put them under oath and debrief them?

Figure out what is really going on...

Matt Franko said...

Look at the whole “ Russia!” conspiracy theory the Democrats were peddling in the media for years ... they just declassified the same democrat peoples sworn testimony to a congressional committee a while back and they all claimed no such knowledge under oath...

Bring them all in and put them under oath and find out what they really know...

Anything else is a waste of time...

Kaivey said...

I follow a guy on twitter who debunks all conspiracy theories. He's quite good, but we've had a real barney on a couple of things. Russiagate was one.

Marian Ruccius said...

The issue is the presentation of facts, is it not? There is a totalitarian element to how information is presented today. As the number of independent "official" news sources (like city newspapers and such) have declined over the last twenty years, the remaining sources (NYT etc.) have been ever easier for elites to control (being fewer and more dependent on a narrower number of funders/advertisers), and divergence from those official narratives has been more severely punished (viz Assange.

At the same time, the internet, on sites like this one, has made it easier for people of diverging views or different backgrounds to share information. So we have two-fold reaction - on the one hand, many peoples' framing myths (so long supported by the conventional media) have been undermined by *reality* (or at least their empirical experience), and on the other it has been easier for the powers at be to trumpet a consistent narrative without serious direct opposition.

So, we are in a situation a bit like post-communist Yugoslavia -- the old ordering myths have been discredited, so people are looking to find their sense of self, their meaning, from other sources (largely the dense and self-referential narratives of a small number of interrelated outlets). Conspiracy theorists are actually, in that sense, a substitute for the decline in genuine debate in conventional media, as people grasp for new understanding.

And the conspiracists are CORRECT to mistrust the official messages, because they have been shown so often to be utterly false. That Matt Franko and I (who are at almost opposite poles on the political spectrum) can agree so often, on things like monetary operations and propaganda, shows how discredited the conventional narratives are.

So I think trying to locate the source of conspiracy theorists views so much in the realm of organizing myths (even though the disruption of those myths is key) is to miss the fundamental point that honest testimony and honest argument is so often repressed. How can you expect conspiracy theorists not to be Lysenkoists when genuine discussion is impeded by authority. That is why supporting Wikileaks is essential.

Marian Ruccius said...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qs6JDf8m03g

Kaivey said...

I was a Quaker for about 5 years. Before I joined I had a very rational mind that could only see religion as nonsense, but I started reading books by Jungian psychologists - who simplified Jung's writings - and it opened up a spiritual path for me. It's mild, but it's always there. I sometimes put out science / spiritual posts here.

Matt Franko said...

Marian,

"hat Matt Franko and I (who are at almost opposite poles on the political spectrum) can agree so often, on things like monetary operations and propaganda, shows how discredited the conventional narratives are."

I'm only GOP registered for the Science and in my state you have to be registered with a Party to be able to vote in Primaries..

The GOP has more Science based people which is the kind of people I want in government right now... yes I know we also have a bunch of Christendumb and Liberal Art morons in there too...

Cant have everything....

But bottom line is if the shit hits the fan in material matters you want the GOP in there they will use fiscal more readily than Democrats....

MMT people are completely politically corrupted into the Democrat side and they are all Trump deranged...

And our Tom here if he is not being compensated by the DNC he damn well should be...

Tom is a complete shill for the DNC ...

Matt Franko said...

Marian,

" the old ordering myths have been discredited, "

Why bring in the word "myth" here?

Look at Kevin's thing from above:

" The story, or myth, is symbolic of a greater truth."

so you are saying that something you are trying to oppose is a greater truth???

What are you trying to do?

What is your purpose?

Why bring myth into this?

What are you doing?

Nobody does this who is ever successful...

Do you want to succeed?

Or just dialog?

Matt Franko said...

“ And the conspiracists are CORRECT to mistrust the official messages, because they have been shown so often to be utterly false. ”

How are they shown to be false? Where?

If they were shown to be false then there wouldn’t be any conspiracy theories....

Matt Franko said...

You have a bunch of Platonist morons who can’t figure anything out making a bunch of shit up...

You have all of these debt doomsday morons going all around saying it’s a big conspiracy to “debase the currency!” ask those same assholes if they EVER took an Accounting course and a Finance course...

They are Platonist Art Degree pieces of human garbage second rate half retarded dickheads who could never hack the rigors of a Science degree so they just make a bunch of shit up...

F_ck those m-fers .... just tell them to go f themselves and get a real education...

Marian Ruccius said...

Matt:

"RIf they were shown to be false then there wouldn’t be any conspiracy theories....r"

Too much irony for my taste.

DESPITE the persecution of Assange etc., the greater danger comes from powerful people openly and unapologetically promoting false narratives in plain view. If you own the media, you do not need to dissemble in spreading untruth.