The UK voted to leave by 52% to 48% to remain, but Scotland
and Ireland voted to remain. People who have never voted before came out in their millions in England to vote leave., but
London and younger people tended to vote to remain. It would seem that people with leftist or centrist
views voted to remain and the Right voted to leave. People who don’t normally bother
to vote tend to lean to the Right and hate people on benefits and immigration.
I’m on the Left but I voted to leave, although that was hard
because I had been so pro EU all my life, and I envied its social democracy and its
culture, but over the years it dawned on me how neoliberal and cold the EU had become.
Then I saw the other day a good documentary put together by socialists and some trade
unions telling people why they should vote to leave. The EU has become a US controlled
neoliberal project designed to destroy Europe’s social democracy. And the EURO made
it difficult for European governments to raise money unless they increased taxes, or privatized state owned assets as their central banks had been dissolved and so couldn't produce more currency.
Greg Palest, a journalist, who is also a brilliant
mathematician, had as a young man infiltrated, or rather became a student of,
the Chicago School, Milton Friedman’s university, which had been started up by
the US aristocracy to spread their right wing propaganda. Greg Palast was a virulent
anti neoliberal who impressed his Chicago School Economic professors with his
mathematical capabilities and so became their top student. Then he actually wrote
a neoliberal paper with Milton Friedman which he deeply regretted afterwards so
he removed his name from it, especially as Milton Friedman loved Greg Palast’s crazy
right wing ideas which he thought wouldn’t be taken seriously.
Anyway, Greg Palast describes how the EURO was designed by
Chicago School professors exactly to destroy Europe’s social democracy. Some of
these same professors had also worked along side Russian gangsters and to loot
the Soviet Union under Yeltsin, say’s Greg Palast, and also they had helped to
install many dictatorships in Latin America. Their technique is to use the ‘Shock
Doctrine’, where they see their chance to seize a country that is in turmoil,
as they are doing right now in Greece, and then try to privatize everything in sight giving it to the One Percent, the 0.00001%, the ruling elite, who own most of
the World except Russia and China, regimes they are now trying to bring down.
One of the reasons I voted out was to help break up NATO
because with a bit of luck other countries will leave the EU too. The EU is a US
vassal state, and all the politicians are clones of each other whether Left or
Right, although there is no real Left in the EU anymore. They have all had their
minds taken over by the US neoliberal body snatchers.
Also, Scotland voted to stay in so they are now considering
running a second referendum to leave the UK. If they do leave England will be seriously
weakened, and there is also talk that the City of London can’t remain as Europe’s
financial center dealing with so much of its business. But the City of London
is known as the crime capital of the world and so England would be better off
without it, so it can go and wreck someone else's economy. With these losses, England will
be seriously weakened and will have less importance as Washington’s puppet, being it’s
loyal lapdog, and so some of the hawkish neoliberal menace in the world would have been tamed maybe by a little bit.
I don’t know if I did the right thing to vote out, but with
Hollande of France who says he is a socialist but is helping the World go towards WW3 by
acting as a Washington puppet, and also with Nicolas Sarkozy’s overthrow of Gadhafi,
I have had my belief in the EU as a moderate, social democratic force for peace
in the World with a model that countered the US’s militaristic one, destroyed.
And
with Eastern Europe’s welcoming of US nuclear missiles on its soil to threaten
Russia, along with Ukraine wanting to become part of the EU as a fascist, neo-Nazi
right wing country all with the support of Washington, and with Turkey always vying to become a EU
member too, also with Washington’s support, which is now a dictatorship arming ISIS to overthrow
the once peaceful, multicultural Syria, then I knew it was time to leave the EU. The EU is nothing like the soft socialist state I hoped it would be.
Kevin.
KV
24 comments:
The EU and soon the Euro is over, this is the beginning of the end of the EU, at least as we know it.
Good riddance.
John why would UKIP dissolve seems like this would give them some cred?
Ignacio, I hope what we've done here in the UK will spread and spell the end of the EU and the EZ.
The humanitarian catastrophe in the EU is dismissed as some sort of externality. Fifty percent youth unemployment in Greece and Spain? And yet nothing is done to alleviate this. The Eurocrats are barbarians. The Eurocrats are sociopaths. The trouble is that they're everywhere, in huge numbers, in the most important posts and are extremely powerful.
The UK may have voted to leave the EU, but with nearly every damn civil servant and politician in favour of the EU, you wonder how much escape is possible. As I said on another thread, this is just the beginning: it'll be all out war. These EUphiles have been building a superstate for more than forty years. They're not just going to simply accept the referendum result. Perhaps the best thing would be to initiate WTO rules in order to evade the EU's enormous tentacles, and then negotiate from there.
If Labour doesn't get its act together fast, the uber-neoliberal Tories will sell the country to the hedge funds and private equity firms. The demented Thatcherite right in the Tory Party is now much strengthened. Cabinet ministers have written a book about privatizing the NHS. This is going to be a nasty fight, and the country is bitterly divided.
Matt, UKIP is considered by nearly everybody to be a one-issue party. You couldn't name another policy if your life depended on it. If you do look at their policies, they're bonkers. They're hardcore uber-neoliberals who have clearly read a lot of Austrian economics. The public will run for the hills. Many Labour voters have gone over to UKIP. Labour has become our version of the Democrats: they're in love with big business and the EU, nothing else matters and so lifelong Labour voters feel so helpless and abandoned they vote for the one party (UKIP) who are willing to listen to their grievances. If Labour finds its soul, rids itself of the vile Blairites, UKIP's hold on the working-class vote is over.
Many in UKIP are essentially nothing more than Thatcherite Tories and will happily return home to the current Conservative Party, especially if the new leader is also a hardcore rightwinger. The problem for the Conservative Party is that the majority of the party is relatively moderate and are pro-EU. The Conservative Party may now veer right and may fracture.
However, and this is a big however, it is not clear that the market oriented Thatcherites will reduce immigration. If immigration is not reduced to pretty much near zero, UKIP will continue to do well.
We're having a repeat of the problems you guys are having: the major parties have no real connection with the public; the major parties are devoted to big business and have nothing but contempt for the working-class; the country is in a real socio-economic mess and is horribly divided; and there is a real chance now of the UK breaking up into its constituent countries.
In this political context, the only thing UKIP can bang on about is what they were created for and that's race: the people running UKIP are obviously racist Thatcherite shits. If immigration is decreased, UKIP is finished because most Brits aren't racist Austrian thugs.
It's pretty much down to the Labour Party not to let their members, voters and their country down. But dollars to doughnuts, you can count on the Labour Party to do the wrong thing and veer to the Blairite right.
John, most of our current problems derive from the cohort of 'enablers' who support the status quo because: a) "things are good!" (for them) or b) they think they can keep escalating the social and economic ladder.
We are talking about 20-30% of the population here, with highest voter turn outs and those who support the status quo parties (and/or party-lines). Most of those involved in the EU-machinery are part of this cohort and they have power directly or indirectly establishing public discourse and have sufficient mass to push towards certain policy lines. This is the people with the money, time and soft power to keep pushing the agenda to more neoliberalism.
But the populist backlash from both left and right is starting to show the cracks in the machine. As Lincoln said: "you cannot fool all the people all the time". The day of the reckoning is coming, slowly, but is happening, as the economic divide widens.
Sure there will be reactionary forces both from the status quo or from the extremists which mistakenly with their out-of-paradigm views will blame everything on the wrong things (and become very much a different nationalist version of the EUrocrats).
But being outside of the EU (as it is now) is a necessary condition to even present battle, there is no battle while on the EU and less so on the euro, as we have seen in Greece where they are being massacred (literally, the EU is killing hundreds with their policy).
A simple in or out vote, alluring in its simplicity, has people on all sides of the political spectrum hoping for broad changes. Maybe it will inspire people to work politics to deliver better outcomes, make bold policy.
Ignacio, I agree completely.
The UK, however, is in the unenviable position of being a country of constituent countries. The UK will almost certainly fracture, with at least one of the constituent countries leaving. Scotland is on the way out, make no mistake about it. Heaven knows what'll now happen in Northern Ireland, a constituent country that also voted to remain in the EU: Sinn Fein, one of the major political parties and the political wing of the provisional IRA, are considering a referendum on leaving the UK and integrating into Ireland; given that 40% of the population in Northern Ireland are Irish Catholic nationalists (or anti-UK for those who are confused with the terminology), a referendum may be successful because there are enough non-Catholics who may wish to be part of the Republic of Ireland and also within the EU; if successful, violence will almost certainly ensue between Irish nationalists and those loyal to the UK. Even tiny Gibraltar is left in limbo: 96% voted to remain in the EU!
What's unfortunate is not that the referendum was called but that the country is now so horribly divided that there is a real chance of fragmentation. Scotland blames England for everything. Many UK-loyalists in Northern Ireland feel betrayed and blame England. Northern and southern England are terribly divided: much of the north is, and I hate to say it, something close to a wasteland. Wales's budget will now rely heavily on funding from a Westminster that may not subsidise it in the same way as the EU did, thus igniting nationalist sentiment.
Thatcher, Blair and Cameron have a lot to answer for. They ruined the economy. Now there may not be a country. Congratulations, you neoliberal cretins. If the UK does breakup, I only hope the Queen lives to see it.
Oi, Cameron resigns!
Yeah it's possible the UK will fracture for good, with the former shadow of the Empire disappearing.
The City of London has created an unsustainable path basing the economy on modern financial piracy and is a cesspool of corruption and moral relativism. Basing much of the power of Britain, indirectly, on this cesspool was on a crash course with the reality of unsustainability and decadence. Other parts of the union are completely detached of this reality and have been left to their own decaying situation for ages, what do Scottish earn by staying in such decrepit union while being constantly ignored on their desires of more progressive agenda by the wealthy elites in London?
Ignoring the reality of millions outside of London has created the conditions which now the elites cannot confront (and weakling and rats start to abandon the boat as Cameron himself). Is when elites become isolated on their own mental and physical ghettos than societies go downhill, reaping what their sow, with their own ill doings.
You can base your society on crime and expectations of raising asset bubbles so much. This should be a good reminder for the counterparts on the other side of the Atlantic on what is to come if we persist on wishful thinking as nation building...
"we" as collective human we, the lessons to be learned can be learned everywhere in any nation in the plant.
Also UK could take the 'spanish' derive too, more rich regions push for independence to detach themselves of poor regions (Basques and Catalans).
Although this may be hard right now, as the former glory of the Empire fades of the collective memory of the English, they may not be interested any more in keep supporting the poor versions just to try to save their neck and pursue their unsustainable 'financial piracy' economic model and the union may end up breaking up because no one is really interested in keeping it alive for completely different reasons (this does not happen in Spain because the poor regions don't want independence from the rest; but this could happen in the USA in a far future when it enters their own decaying period).
Ignacio, and here's the thing. Who is going to do anything significant about this divide? You'd need very strong WWII-style Keynesian policies. That isn't going to happen. The country will keep festering. So not only a breakup and possible violence but the public lulled into voting for more neoliberalism.
There is a slim chance of Labour becoming a leftwing Keynesian party and doing something significant in order to halt a breakup and halt the deterioration of vast swathes of the country. The chances of the Tories willing to do anything about the socio-economic problems are also remote. I really fear for the old Labour heartlands. In these extreme circumstances, UKIP may make a comeback - or something worse may rear its ugly head.
Ian Welsh (http://www.ianwelsh.net/) has a good quick summary on the implications (which are aligned with what John here is saying).
On that note, it's rough, but sometimes things have to get worse and worse so they can get good. Which means on the case of UK we may have a couple of electoral cycles of regression and pain until some figure it out: is not the lack of Tatcherism and immigration which are the main problem for the UK. If England tries to pursue this Scotland and Northern Ireland will break up.
A second derivative is that we may be at the start of some 'trade wars' between the UK and continental Europe with some export-driven industries bleeding to the UK due to lower exchange rates. The trend is rewinding of 'free trade' and globalism as everyone tries to maintain the status quo via beggar-thy-neighbour like Germany and Japan have been doing for a long time.
Ignacio, and this is where Germany can be really Machiavellian. It needs to discipline the rest of the EU, so it cannot give favourable terms to the UK. However, any deal with the UK won't be done for at least a couple of years. In that meantime, it can help orchestrate a breakup of the UK, with at least Scotland joining the EU. It may induce a Northern Ireland split: by the time Northern Ireland is ready to be picked off, Germany may have left the EZ recover and look more inviting. And Gibraltar is a ripe low hanging fruit ready to be devoured!
I don't think the UK can survive a couple of electoral cycles. I always knew there were divisions in the country, but last night showed how stark they are. The divisions are so stark that the UK as we currently know it will almost certainly not exist in ten years. Labour, who I despise, have to purge the Blairites, swing heavily to the left, make massive tax cuts to the working classes, bring in a Job Guarantee, deficit spend like there's no tomorrow and do whatever it takes to help so many benighted communities, villages, towns, cities and even regions which have been left for dead by neoliberal Thatcherism and Blairism.
Carney came out and said he'd do whatever it takes to steady the financial markets. In contrast, Corbyn should say he'll do whatever it takes to ensure everybody has a job, everybody has a decent living income, everybody has a house, everybody has free health and education up to and including postgraduate education, everybody has a good pension. And then watch the votes flood in.
So much magical unicorn thinking - truly breathtaking.
On both sides of the Atlantic, you have people who believe government, as a collective, can make the mass of people lives better. On the other hand, you have people who believe government stands in the way, particularly for their own self-interest. Both types run for elected office hoping to bring their vision to government - the former group to improve society; the latter to improve their own positions.
The two factions clash within the governing process, with the social types trying to progress for society and the anti-social types trying to impede, if not reverse, social gains. But the real strength of the anti-social types is to leverage their stymying progress to getting the populace to blame everything wrong in their lives on the government. They also play on irrational xenophobia (immigrants, racial) and conspiracy fears (e.g. the EU is a CIA plot) of the low-informational voters.
The EU is the mechanism to take on the neoliberals. Is it perfect in that regard? Far from it because, (and I know this is hard to do for many) remember, the EU has neoliberal anti-social people within it impeding, with every chance they get, progress by the social types that are also in the EU. But the typical low-information voter doesn't care for that detail, they just know things are not great for themselves - and, of course, its because of immigrants or Blacks or the CIA. And they go out and vote against their own economic self-interest.
Likewise in the US. Take Obamacare. It's reduced the uninsured to the lowest historical levels and recently shown that it will save trillions (that's with a "T") over the next couple of decades in health care cost. It' not perfect though- it hasn't put a Mercedes in everyone's garage, and it might have taken "freedom" out of our "freedom fries" - so let's elect a billionaire real estate developer who will build a wall.
There's no fixing stupid - even magic unicorns can't do that.
Salsa,
Thanks for the sanctimonious screed. Let me paraphrase: ..."If you don't agree with me then you're Stooopid!" "If you don't agree with me you're a racist, you're an irrational xenophobe!!!". "If you lament your individual plight in this world for any number of reasons you're an ignorant anti government dullard". "If you think the EU sucks elitist ass at the expense of tens of millions you're a narrow minded nationalist". "If you think Obamacare is worse than what existed before it you're a low-information, insensitive zealot".
A unifying message for sure.
Salsabob, the EU IS a neoliberal construct. Is not 'infiltrated' and it cannot be 'reformed'. It is a tool for unaccountable institutional corporate control without any democratic control. It's how it's used, and it cannot be changed 'from within'. When the hell in history of mankind have reactionary institutions been 'reformed from within'?! Never, ever, they just exist to maintain the status quo. Burn the whole thing down and start over, if there is actual will to start over. UK is on its own crash course with neoliberal right-wingers in power, the population will have to eventually figure it out and stop believing in fairy tales about capitalism.
You are not going to get 'wise technocratic social government' with incrementalism and reforming from the inside. Instead what happens in reality is a constant regression where democracy fades and is substituted by fake technocracy and 'liberalism' (not even neo, as it's old as fuck). Is just elitism by and for the moneyed interests, nothing else.
There is no real democratic check & balances built within the EU, whichever there were, were systematically destroyed, and I've serious doubts there ever were as the EU was designed by ex-fascists and outright evil people from the get go (as Alain Parguez has explained).
Now you have a moronfest of finance ministers breaking the people's will apart and punishing them with their pro-creditor agenda and their stupid supply-side fairy tales.
Mal the left always has a quick draw wrt the "xenophobia!" angle...
The EU is run by incompetents so they got repudiated here imo .... If EU tptb want to avoid repudiation they best deliver better outcomes then this wouldn't happen
Matt, I don't see how any self respecting person or nation would want to be a part of the EU given it's grossly immoral shakedown of Greece alone.( Thus I wonder how many liberal Brits voted to remain?) Of course that doesn't mean by itself that a vote to leave is the right decision, but it's strong ammo to be sure when informing one's decision.
I get that leaving isn't a simple act, yet that doesn't invalidate the sentiments of the majority that voted to leave-insults from many on the left and Establishment notwithstanding. Of course this would not have happened had Brit been a member of the EMU, so kudos to them for not getting roped into that black hole.
AEP, btw, has a nice piece in The Telegraph on his decision to vote leave. Not as easy as people might think.
I actually feel sad about leaving Europe now, and about the UK maybe splitting up. This shouldn't have happened, the EU should have been a moderate social democray. I was always so pro Europe. My friends can't believe which way I voted. My vote made no difference, though, my borough voted in.
I'm now reading the book, The Millennials' Money, by JD. Alt. It's MMT made simple. He paints a different world - if only MMT could be given a chance, we could save the EU and the UK, and probably the World.
Interesting! Thanks.
" the EU should have been a moderate social democray. "
But it wasnt so people want to move on there is nothing wrong with that... those EU idiots cant be let to get away with fomenting all of the chaos with impunity... they think they are TINA well now maybe they dont think that so much.... its a good message the UK sent imo.... now I just hope the US follows suit with Trump and Trump gets rid of all of the GOP neo-liberals and neo-cons and runs them the F right out of the GOP... then the Dems will have to do the same too....
Malmo: "Thus I wonder how many liberal Brits voted to remain?"
It depends what you mean by liberal. If you mean socially liberal US-style "identity politics" democrats, then the answer is nearly every single one of them. Useful idiots the lot of them. If you mean leftwing social democrats and undiluted socialists, then I'd say a good majority voted to remain, clinging on to their fantasy of reforming the EU from within and forging a socially just union, while a minority of socialists voted to leave. (By way of clarification, socialism here doesn't mean Bernie Sanders and his lukewarm Keynesian policies. Socialism here means what it's traditionally meant: ownership of the means of production, distribution and exchange.)
The left has been beaten to a pulp for so long by the Tories and the Blairites that they've got severe brain damage. The country needs a very strong and militant left to pull the country back together. Objectively speaking, we're in serious trouble. Frighteningly serious trouble, and the vultures are circling. I hope God is an Englishman - we need something close to divine intervention.
Matt: "But it wasnt so people want to move on there is nothing wrong with that"
That sounds reasonable, but the situation we find ourselves in demands that at a minimum an end to the EZ and the EU as is, FDR-like policies and a defenestration of the neoliberal savagery that's a job killing machine and turning whole countries into wastelands.
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