An economics, investment, trading and policy blog with a focus on Modern Monetary Theory (MMT). We seek the truth, avoid the mainstream and are virulently anti-neoliberalism.
Mr. Norman: I saw the debate and went just as I suspected. The man is typical of all the fanatics I have ever seen; unwilling to learn and shouts down his opponents. I will give you an A for trying, but the man is impossible.
Santelli definitely thinks that the govt has to borrow it's own USD balances, this is AT BEST irrational.
Then tried to get Mike "drumrolled" by the producers...
He could not respond to Mike's points about the $37T that we have already rolled over this FY at 0%, and could only counter with the $15T in total debt.... but Santelli is so out of it that he doesnt even realize that the GOVT ITSELF holds $5T of it! See Table 3-C here:
Santelli let him talk through the first half of the segment, despite Norman calling the idea "dumb"...not very respectful IMO. Then Norman does the quiz and tries talking over him. I wouldn't expect any phone calls from CNBC about any future appearances. What did you expect from Santelli anyway...he is a star on the network and started the Tea Party! The drumstick line was pretty good though...
I guess you didn't have the concentration to read 3 sentences of my post. SANTELLI IS A STAR ON THE NETWORK. If you had such a status, would you want some penis with a free blogger account trying to upstage you?
Santelli is a big time jerk. He just likes to scream, figures that makes him look smart. It doesn't. I wonder how the other people on cnbc tolerate him, but then most of them are not particularly the sharpest tacks in the box either.
Cody, even if it results in no re-match (I notice how the video isn't being posted on CNBC), maybe it's not a bad thing to show the powers-that-be how easy their little-stick-with-big-mouth 'star' can be taken down.
Made my weekend!
p.s. maybe sent a note to CNBC hoping they have the gonads to post the video?
Mike I bet has more experience trading than Santelli who probably got coffee for some firm back in the 70's.....
Ivy League Degree, now Chief Economist at a Wall Street BD, member at Futures Exchanges, etc.. etc... WHY DO YOU NOT WANT TO HEAR WHAT HE HAS TO SAY?????
Santelli cannot even perform simple logical reasoning if he cannot see that you cannot reduce the USD Reserve Balances without having first INCREASED the USD reserve balances... dont listen to Santelli!
Then take Santelli's side in the debate: Why is it a good policy for the US Treasury to continue to issue Treasury Securities? What great public purpose does this accomplish?
"Santelli cannot even perform simple logical reasoning if he cannot see that you cannot reduce the USD Reserve Balances without having first INCREASED the USD reserve balances"
This was illustrated by Matt with a nice picture of two brothers in a bath, the oldest one (around 4 years old) making this simple operation of addition and subtraction.
There is something about this human construct, "money"... that makes apparently normal human being to degenerate in an inferior mental state, sort of irrational where natural logic operations do not longer apply. It probably has to do with the fact that money induces similar mental states than drugs in most humans, increasing neural activity in certain areas of the brain and production of certain neurotransmitters.
It's a total takeover of the limbic system over the neocortex. TPTB utilize this as a powerful propaganda tool then to make us think that we are 'borrowing from the future' at the 'expense of our grandchildren'. Neocortex does not function then telling you that is physically impossible to 'borrow from the future' or consume production that has not been produced.
Is very hard to fight this takeover of the emotional feedback over cognitive reasoning, just try at your personal family meets or with friends, you will encounter heavy opposition and even indirect violence.
You know Cody, sometimes I wonder if it would not be better to hold the tea cup with one's pinky held aloft.
However, I quickly remind myself how much damage Santelli and his type of ignorance are doing to my country.
There's time for quiet conversion of the uninitiated and perhaps to pussyfoot around with thoughtful but perhaps somewhat, shall we say, low-information thinkers.
There are times, however, to go for the knockout.
I just sure like to get the tape; I think it will come in handy later.
Mike, He let you have your say in the beginning and I don't think he understood what you were saying. Reserve drain? Roll over? Then he had to go to full on bluster to close it out.
BTW, while you are answering Matt's question about the public purpose of issuing tsys (who is served, how and why — the public or interests), tell me how the interest on tsys, which is operationally unnecessary under the current system, is not a subsidy that goes to interests rather than being used for public purpose. Looks like socialism for those wealthy enough to save in tsys to me. How do you justify this subsidy wrt public purpose?
"I don't think he understood what you were saying."
This is the problem with many if not most news commenters. They don't have the background or understanding necessary to comment intelligently and just perpetrate the myths, which what they are actually hired to do, isn't it, when you think about it. The people that own and run the media don't want the public to know how they are being ripped off, so they don't hire people that would be able to tell them.
Expanding on the above, Warren tells many stories of explaining MMT to various Very Important People, apparently getting their agreement privately, and then watching them contradict this publicly, sometimes even immediately afterward. The "news" is just a propaganda tool.
Hey Matt and Tom, thank you so much! That is great of you both to give me an opportunity to weigh in! Let me start by saying...oh....wait.....I never said I agreed with Santelli, and...wait.....you are just trying to be condescending asses.
I merely commented on the rudeness of this Norman guy, coming on Santelli's show and trying to upstage, talk over, and talk down to him - full knowing Santelli is the STAR, then beating his chest here about how he scored a "knockout". Maybe in his mind he thought he could make a name for himself and get away from being an occasional contributor on a free blogger account that has his name on it. A little civility and humility would have been a better choice.
You don't win arguments by being nice to someone who lies and does not play nice on a daily basis.
You know, the truth is that for most humans truth does not matter, most people will believe what they listen 10000 thousand times even if you told the truth 9999 times.
I think you guys are underestimating the sort of 'forces' that we are playing against here,m are really ancient (millions of years!) and strong. There are 99% probabilities we are doomed and things will end up where TPTB want them to end, because they control the muppets who tell lies 10000 times.
Very sad, but has been this forever and modern neuroscience and psychology (sort of<) confirms it from a scientific point of view.
That's why it's sad watching people like CR conceding to the status quo while attacking the best alternatives, we are just going to get worse this way! You must be naive to think how they will downplay what is not in their favour and highlight what is within their 'paradigm'. Things will have to get really really bad until people can't deny truth.
Last tie m we found ourself in a similar situation we needed a World War, that's a "luxury" we can't have right now (could mean our extinction).
Salsabal "So, Cody, your basic point is Mike going on Ricky's turf and being rude; and you make that point by coming on Mike's turf... too funny."
Ditto.
If I came across as hostile or rude, I apologize. I was just asking a question amplifying on Matt's, as far as I was concerned.
But as you've noticed, the style here is somewhat confrontational. So don't be surprised if Mike confronted Santelli, who is best known for his famous rant, I might add.
Come on, I doubt that even Santelli himself thinks there was anything rude happening.
If you want to see an example of when Santelli is pissed at someone and not having fun just watch the exchange earlier in the day, or any day, between him and Steve Liesman.
I was walking home late one night in upper Manhattan when I saw a guy beating up on woman. I figured I could take him mano a mano, hoped he wasn't packin', and went over and butted in.
The lady turns to me and starts swearing at me, saying this guy is my boyfriend and if he wants to beat up on me that's our business, so butt off.
I disagree Cody. I'm tired of conservatives shouting down everyone, and when anyone else returns "fire", they are being a dick, as you say.
Ever see Krugman vs. O'Reilly? Here you go:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MUOFTPbxuWA
The hand-wringing, eye-darting, and paper-shuffling of Krugman isn't necessarily "weak". It's an indication he doesn't understand his opponent and how they operate. Much less how to respond.
I'd pit Bill Maher (on social issues) and Mike Norman (on economic issues) against any of these "dicks" anytime, anywhere. ALL of 'em, at the same time.
35 comments:
I sure hope they have alloted you guys more than 10 minutes to debate this. At the very least I hope its the "First in a series of debates"
break a leg, Mike
Mike don't back people against the wall with a quiz just state the facts and see how they respond.
Glad to see you getting out there on CNBC though.
Mr. Norman:
I saw the debate and went just as I suspected. The man is typical of all the fanatics I have ever seen; unwilling to learn and shouts down his opponents. I will give you an A for trying, but the man is impossible.
Santelli definitely thinks that the govt has to borrow it's own USD balances, this is AT BEST irrational.
Then tried to get Mike "drumrolled" by the producers...
He could not respond to Mike's points about the $37T that we have already rolled over this FY at 0%, and could only counter with the $15T in total debt.... but Santelli is so out of it that he doesnt even realize that the GOVT ITSELF holds $5T of it! See Table 3-C here:
https://www.fms.treas.gov/fmsweb/viewDTSFiles?dir=w&fname=12050200.pdf
Then coward Santelli had the segment cut short: "back to you".
What a coward.
Resp,
cody,
Then why have guests on at all if it is supposed to be "The Dick Santelli Show"????
I totally knocked him out. Totally. He couldn't answer the question about how much we rolled over. He tried to divert. He looked stupid.
Matt,
Santelli let him talk through the first half of the segment, despite Norman calling the idea "dumb"...not very respectful IMO. Then Norman does the quiz and tries talking over him. I wouldn't expect any phone calls from CNBC about any future appearances. What did you expect from Santelli anyway...he is a star on the network and started the Tea Party! The drumstick line was pretty good though...
Cody,
Are you serious? Santelli talks over people all the time. It's okay for him to do it? Stop trying to make excuses for him, you jerk.
Mike,
I guess you didn't have the concentration to read 3 sentences of my post. SANTELLI IS A STAR ON THE NETWORK. If you had such a status, would you want some penis with a free blogger account trying to upstage you?
Sorry I mised this. Will you post a video?
Santelli is a big time jerk. He just likes to scream, figures that makes him look smart. It doesn't. I wonder how the other people on cnbc tolerate him, but then most of them are not particularly the sharpest tacks in the box either.
Cody, even if it results in no re-match (I notice how the video isn't being posted on CNBC), maybe it's not a bad thing to show the powers-that-be how easy their little-stick-with-big-mouth 'star' can be taken down.
Made my weekend!
p.s. maybe sent a note to CNBC hoping they have the gonads to post the video?
Mike I bet has more experience trading than Santelli who probably got coffee for some firm back in the 70's.....
Ivy League Degree, now Chief Economist at a Wall Street BD, member at Futures Exchanges, etc.. etc... WHY DO YOU NOT WANT TO HEAR WHAT HE HAS TO SAY?????
Santelli cannot even perform simple logical reasoning if he cannot see that you cannot reduce the USD Reserve Balances without having first INCREASED the USD reserve balances... dont listen to Santelli!
Mike's CV is AT LEAST as impressive as Bianco's:
http://www.arborresearch.com/bianco/?page_id=46890
Why listen to Bianco but not listen to Mike?
That is not rational behavior...
btw, I love how Norman felt the need to post how he "totally knocked him out" a few minutes after the appearance.
I've never heard of anyone involved in a debate or any other contest feeling the need to do this. That is for other people or scoreboards to decide.
Got insecurity?
Hey Cody,
Then take Santelli's side in the debate: Why is it a good policy for the US Treasury to continue to issue Treasury Securities? What great public purpose does this accomplish?
You now have the floor:
"Santelli cannot even perform simple logical reasoning if he cannot see that you cannot reduce the USD Reserve Balances without having first INCREASED the USD reserve balances"
According to Piaget's theory this is something a normal human being should be able to do at the age of 4.
This was illustrated by Matt with a nice picture of two brothers in a bath, the oldest one (around 4 years old) making this simple operation of addition and subtraction.
There is something about this human construct, "money"... that makes apparently normal human being to degenerate in an inferior mental state, sort of irrational where natural logic operations do not longer apply. It probably has to do with the fact that money induces similar mental states than drugs in most humans, increasing neural activity in certain areas of the brain and production of certain neurotransmitters.
It's a total takeover of the limbic system over the neocortex. TPTB utilize this as a powerful propaganda tool then to make us think that we are 'borrowing from the future' at the 'expense of our grandchildren'. Neocortex does not function then telling you that is physically impossible to 'borrow from the future' or consume production that has not been produced.
Is very hard to fight this takeover of the emotional feedback over cognitive reasoning, just try at your personal family meets or with friends, you will encounter heavy opposition and even indirect violence.
At this stage, we are doomed if nothing changes.
You know Cody, sometimes I wonder if it would not be better to hold the tea cup with one's pinky held aloft.
However, I quickly remind myself how much damage Santelli and his type of ignorance are doing to my country.
There's time for quiet conversion of the uninitiated and perhaps to pussyfoot around with thoughtful but perhaps somewhat, shall we say, low-information thinkers.
There are times, however, to go for the knockout.
I just sure like to get the tape; I think it will come in handy later.
Mike,
He let you have your say in the beginning and I don't think he understood what you were saying. Reserve drain? Roll over? Then he had to go to full on bluster to close it out.
@Cody
BTW, while you are answering Matt's question about the public purpose of issuing tsys (who is served, how and why — the public or interests), tell me how the interest on tsys, which is operationally unnecessary under the current system, is not a subsidy that goes to interests rather than being used for public purpose. Looks like socialism for those wealthy enough to save in tsys to me. How do you justify this subsidy wrt public purpose?
"I don't think he understood what you were saying."
This is the problem with many if not most news commenters. They don't have the background or understanding necessary to comment intelligently and just perpetrate the myths, which what they are actually hired to do, isn't it, when you think about it. The people that own and run the media don't want the public to know how they are being ripped off, so they don't hire people that would be able to tell them.
Is there somewhere we can watch the Norman Santelli segment?
Expanding on the above, Warren tells many stories of explaining MMT to various Very Important People, apparently getting their agreement privately, and then watching them contradict this publicly, sometimes even immediately afterward. The "news" is just a propaganda tool.
Lev,
That is VERY interesting, ie the breakdown of the normal human brain functions.
Very interesting...
Resp,
Here is a clip: http://www.rencapp.com/Santelli_Norman.mpg
Hey Matt and Tom, thank you so much! That is great of you both to give me an opportunity to weigh in! Let me start by saying...oh....wait.....I never said I agreed with Santelli, and...wait.....you are just trying to be condescending asses.
I merely commented on the rudeness of this Norman guy, coming on Santelli's show and trying to upstage, talk over, and talk down to him - full knowing Santelli is the STAR, then beating his chest here about how he scored a "knockout". Maybe in his mind he thought he could make a name for himself and get away from being an occasional contributor on a free blogger account that has his name on it. A little civility and humility would have been a better choice.
So, Cody, your basic point is Mike going on Ricky's turf and being rude; and you make that point by coming on Mike's turf...
too funny.
You don't win arguments by being nice to someone who lies and does not play nice on a daily basis.
You know, the truth is that for most humans truth does not matter, most people will believe what they listen 10000 thousand times even if you told the truth 9999 times.
I think you guys are underestimating the sort of 'forces' that we are playing against here,m are really ancient (millions of years!) and strong. There are 99% probabilities we are doomed and things will end up where TPTB want them to end, because they control the muppets who tell lies 10000 times.
Very sad, but has been this forever and modern neuroscience and psychology (sort of<) confirms it from a scientific point of view.
That's why it's sad watching people like CR conceding to the status quo while attacking the best alternatives, we are just going to get worse this way! You must be naive to think how they will downplay what is not in their favour and highlight what is within their 'paradigm'. Things will have to get really really bad until people can't deny truth.
Last tie m we found ourself in a similar situation we needed a World War, that's a "luxury" we can't have right now (could mean our extinction).
Salsabal "So, Cody, your basic point is Mike going on Ricky's turf and being rude; and you make that point by coming on Mike's turf... too funny."
Ditto.
If I came across as hostile or rude, I apologize. I was just asking a question amplifying on Matt's, as far as I was concerned.
But as you've noticed, the style here is somewhat confrontational. So don't be surprised if Mike confronted Santelli, who is best known for his famous rant, I might add.
Lev,
You are really 'talking my language' here sir!!!!
I see this too... VERY powerful forces... no easy answers seemingly.
Great stuff.
Resp,
Come on, I doubt that even Santelli himself thinks there was anything rude happening.
If you want to see an example of when Santelli is pissed at someone and not having fun just watch the exchange earlier in the day, or any day, between him and Steve Liesman.
DAB,
right Santelli shouts down Leisman all the time when Leisman has some good observations and questions for him...
"Come on, I doubt that even Santelli himself thinks there was anything rude happening."
After all, this is New York, where as long as you don't hit someone is not rude, and then it's only being assertive. :)
New York story
I was walking home late one night in upper Manhattan when I saw a guy beating up on woman. I figured I could take him mano a mano, hoped he wasn't packin', and went over and butted in.
The lady turns to me and starts swearing at me, saying this guy is my boyfriend and if he wants to beat up on me that's our business, so butt off.
I disagree Cody. I'm tired of conservatives shouting down everyone, and when anyone else returns "fire", they are being a dick, as you say.
Ever see Krugman vs. O'Reilly? Here you go:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MUOFTPbxuWA
The hand-wringing, eye-darting, and paper-shuffling of Krugman isn't necessarily "weak". It's an indication he doesn't understand his opponent and how they operate. Much less how to respond.
I'd pit Bill Maher (on social issues) and Mike Norman (on economic issues) against any of these "dicks" anytime, anywhere. ALL of 'em, at the same time.
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