Story here at AFP via Yahoo.
Milan (AFP) - Vladimir Putin meets his Ukrainian counterpart and EU leaders here on Friday fresh from warning he could pull the plug on crucial Russian gas supplies to Western Europe this winter.
The Russian president has also played his gas trump card, effectively reminding Europe that it gets about a third of its supplies from Russia.
Putin insisted he did not want to see a repeat of 2006 and 2009 when interruptions of supplies to Ukraine disrupted onward deliveries to Europe which gets about a third of its gas from Russia.
"I am very much hoping that it will not come to that," Putin said.These types of misguided hijinks are how you go from getting the nickname "Pootie Poot" to a pariah, I guess some people just have to learn the hard way.
22 comments:
Huh? It was the EU leaders that imposed sanctions on Russia, and they are surprised when Russia reacts? They can lift the sanctions at any time if they don't want their people to freeze.
Tom this goes back years:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005%E2%80%9306_Russia%E2%80%93Ukraine_gas_dispute
The toll was in gas and then the price of gas went thru the roof and the Russia side reneged...
this is the same thing Chavez did in Venezuela with the oil...
You have to keep the deal or you get "thrown out of the club"....
Always been this way, always will be....
rsp,
Matt, Who is the a-h here - the German female a-h or the male Russian a-h My vote goes to the Germans - who have been uniformly a-h's to almost all parties in the EU and points Eastward. They seem to take their orders from people further to the West, not in the EU
I understand that there isn't anything new to be discussed.
Russia has already publicly stated that Ukraine owes $5.9 billion for gas already delivered and from this point forward, Ukraine will have to pay in advance.
Crazy capitalists !
Poroshenko has publicly stated that he will not pay in advance. Petro holds his position at the exclusive choice of the US and operates accordingly.
This is nothing new and has been known for months and to be intellectually honest, Putin has made no threats regarding gas deliveries or otherwise.
The idiots of the EU were the ones who imposed sanctions under US orders even though it harms the EU.
Blow back can be a nasty thing.
Frankly, what does the EU and Poroshenko have to offer in this gratuitous Ukrainian debacle?
Poroshenko is up for election at the end of October and has a lot political posturing to do, but, that won't change the current status.
The EU is beholden to the German god of austerity and won't be handing Ukraine a line of credit, the IMF advances were used to pay US arms suppliers, so what is to be done?
The EU / Washington should accept reality and that reality is that Ukraine is no more. The MSM in the US and the west should also go back to reporting facts instead of parroting officialdom's dogma.
I really don't see Putin doing anything other than being pragmatic.
He will show support for Poroshenko, as if he goes, it's very likely a neo-nazi/fascist will take his place, which would be nothing but trouble.
He will affirm the cease fire, the legitimacy of Novorussia and the status quo in Crimea.
He will no doubt also seek a consensus surrounding the EU/ US / Russia need to contribute to assisting Kiev pay its' bills.
If Kiev falls to the fascists an overdue gas bill is the least of Europe's problems.
"nobody wants to do business with an asshole."
Of course, not, unless they are forced to, and that's how the global political economy works. If someone really doesn't like it, or thinks that can just take it, then they go to war. Of course, that's dressed up in all sort of piety, patriotism and appeals to "national security."
Global political economy isn't beanbag, and nice guys finish last.
"If Kiev falls to the fascists an overdue gas bill is the least of Europe's problems."
Then the real nightmare begins, and the likelihood of nuclear conflict skyrockets. The US will back them, and probably the Brits as Uncle Sam's poodle. But the rest of Europe will be thinking twice about it, since they will be in the line of fire. They know the Ukie "nationalists" are loose cannons, and no one in Europe has forgotten the Nazis, unlike the US, which never had to deal with them up close.
Xinhua - Putin promises not to create gas crisis in Europe
Looks to me like Putin is standing out as the grownup against a background of immature brats, um leaders, acting out.
Seve, they probably think all the "uncertainty" created by this Russian/Ukraine gas shenanigans is one of the reasons austerity isn't working. ...
Tom only these two loser nations could figure out how to F up $13 NAT gas.... this is like dealing with a hybrid of the Abbott & Costello & Corleone Gas Co. ...
Remember the Olympics you couldnt even flush the toilet paper and Bob Costas got double conjunctivitis. .. Rome had indoor plumbing 2,000 years ago.....
The Europeans probably wish they didn't have to deal with either and seem to be trying to hook up with the Arabs and going solar instead..
Rsp
I wish I could say that this is fun to watch, but, I cannot.
It's been a terrible and horrific action/mistake made by the Nuland like neocons of Washington.
They threw their support (CIA included) behind an openly fascist / neo-nazi group to overthrow a democratically elected leader of the Ukraine.
Apparently thinking that no one would notice, and for that matter they have largely achieved their objective.
I think it's an open secret that Obama has a massive dislike for Putin, since Putin refused to offer up Snowden for US public sacrifice.
Recall the open letter from the US administration (courtesy of AG Holder)?
ERIC HOLDER TO RUSSIA: We Will Not Torture Or Seek The Death Penalty For Edward Snowden
Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/edward-snowden-russia-asylum-death-penalty-torture-eric-holder-2013-7#ixzz3GNp0jT5G
The US/EU/West needs to thottle down their ideological objectives.
It's putting the world at risk.
Neocon are brainless frenzy ideologues, they have a history of 14 years of useless wars (now declaring war on ebola with "boots on the ground" in Africa, how stupid can one be) and nothing to show for it but chaos and a progressive decoupling of the world economy from the petrodollar (the thing they wanted to avoid in the first place). They are desperate and with each move get into a deeper shithole, hey morons: stop digging!
This whole Ukraine fiasco is worrisome though cause "Merkel and lamers" have blindly followed Nuland and idiots overseas (Germany still is an occupied national after all, if that's an excuse), doing that is incompatible with their own austerian-whorshipping, instead of securing several energy supply lines (from the South, Algeria and the Maghreb; from the North the reserves in Norway and the North Sea; and from the East Russia) while we try to build up up energy independence in the long term through other options. Instead Europeans choose the losing side of neocons, who have been the highest morons around the world for 14 years sinking trillions of aggregate demand and real resources overseas. We don't really deserve better outcome than this now.
What is the EEU's threat to Russia?
"Sell us your gas ... or else?"
This has become so politicized that it's impossible to have an electorate stay informed in real time.
Currently, centralized control of new internet & news technology is still used to keep people confused rather than informed.
The firms should work this out between themselves without direct govt involvement but rather govt regulations. ..
This is what happens when you have nationalized gas companies...
Look these two nations were so destroyed during the last 100 years it will probably take another 100 years for them to normalize... in the mean time seems like the European nations are trying to salvage the situation. . So you try to get behind the one side in Ukraine that seems cooperative/competent and d all of a sudden Nazis start showing up...
I'm sure they are thinking of alternatives to dealing with these 2.... its like dealing with a dysfunctional general contractor and sub.... next time you go with someone else but for now you have to deal with it because winter is coming... rsp
Europeans have enough gas in storage this winter. Ukraine has enough production and storage from what I've read to make it through Winter. Putin knows it. If cuts happen, the problems would arise later next year if they deplete their storage over winter or if Europe doesn't cooperate and share among themselves and their ports and storage facilities. The real issue, as always, is price. Ukraine receives a sweet deal from Putin if they don't talk to Europe. But they've decided gas isn't worth not talking to Europe.
All the inflammatory rhetoric about Nazis, Putin, "The West", Europe, US, Nuland etc, aren't really the point. Ukraine was/is poor, very poor. Poorer than everyone else in the region. The people are determined to lift themselves up, cast off the crony capitalists, and they are aligning themselves with who ever promises to help them do it. Ukraine has probably watched the other former Soviet colonies join Europe and raise their standards of living and want to also. It's difficult to focus on the people when the strategy and intrigue is so much more exciting. But you can see how divisive it is to throw off crony capitalists, the crony capitalists, have partisans who try to distract everyone from the real issues, they take all sorts of pseudo-intellectual positions to support their continued oppression. Everyone knows which ideological team they are supposed to join. The dance is all perfectly choreographed. And if the Ukranians fall for the rhetoric of either side they get shafted. They need to be independent and do what is best for Ukraine. If people call them criminals, nazis, Putin's puppets, Nuland's puppets, OH WELL!
Matt, ukranians don't produce oil or NG, there are workarounds to transport these commodities through Ukraine. In fact they do not produce anything of use to the EU countries, nothing at all (everything they produce we can produce BETTER inside the EU already, and if we don't is because the failed trade policies inside the EU that limit production quotas, what a joke).
Why focus on that failed state (which was never an independent nation before the fall of the USSR to start with, but that's an other matter) when from real politiks POV the focus should be on Russian relationships. We don't have/need to be "best friends", but just secure enough resource supplies and certain stability: we give Putin stability because we offer him a market for things he produces while he can further advance his nation (or not) and acquire euro balances to buy developed nation goods and technology, develop his own captial markets or whatever. Is (was?) a similar deal with China, we only need to not let imbalance build up too much over time because that ain't good for stability long term (as we are watching now).
Ultimately the West objective is and should be to not depend on these imports but is up to Putin & friends to decide how they use this trade relationship to further advance wealth and development. Remember, we are just buying time, but I'm a true believer in progress and anti-zero-sum ideologies, so in the end, if people in charge is not completely retarded we all can win (what's the alternative? chaos and collapse?).
We are in the process of moving from an oil-based economy to a NG-based economy, as an intermediate stage to moving to a "mixed energy sources" economy and, ultimately, to a sustainable energy source economy (based on renewable energies, maybe including fusion on 30-50 years or so) so it's all temporal (well, everything is always temporal and flowing, but this is should be clearly temporal).
I'm sorry for the ukranians but they will have to fix their own shit, just like the arab world or every failed state in developing economies which cannot progress without both export(commodities)/imports(high value goods and technology) from the west and/or ""smart"" nations (ie. not completely incompetent and retarded) (Asia based mostly, maybe even Africa in some decades will be smarter than all these failed theocracies, autocracies, and failed petrostates). We had to do it some time in history too, wars were fought, blood was spilled, etc etc etc.
Ukraine is not a potential partner because they don't have anything to offer, so the focus should be relationships with Russia. Putin is no angel but as long as he keeps west border relatively stable is ok, if we help him keep his own regime stable then... he doesn't need more ground/resources, he will just threaten or act if he is threatened. And about the EU/eurozone etc. we all know it's a failed thing, so further expansionism should be off the table anyway.
The bottom line to this fiasco is the shift in geopolitics and geostrategy among major players. Russia and China had been seeking rapprochement with the West on the condition that they be recognized as autonomous, if not also great powers. They had cautiously assumed that the West also sought such rapprochement if not exactly on the terms that the Russians and Chines would prefer.
However, recent events and the Ukraine played a big part in this have result in the perception of Russia and China shifting to the view that the US has set a high priority on regime change in both countries and will pursue policies to destabilize the existing regimes and replace them with oligarchic neoliberal democracy as vassal states of the American Empire. Whether that is a correct perception or not, it is the current shift in geopolitics and geostrategy, and it is likely to dominate global relations for the foreseeable future, including a resumption of the arms race and an alliance of the Global South against the Global North to undermine Western unipolarism under US hegemony. A resumption of the Cold War is also possible if things get nastier, but it is likely that both sides will try to avoid that. However, the global realignment is on, and military expenditure is rising across the board. The Ukraine is a proxy war between the US and its allies and Russia and its allies in the continuing Great Game. China was at first neutral but is now moving toward Russia. This is all very unfortunate since it needn't have happened. It benefits no one other than those pursuing regime change in Russia and China regardless of blowback.
Ryan it would seem nazis usually have a 'crony capitalist' component to them so this is out of the frying pan into the fire for them in this regard...
Ignacio agree wrt Ukraine I met some people back in the 90s who went over their (missionary types...) who said it was sad and depressing, there were no children, etc... really bad... going to take a long time to normalize...
Tom, dont forget that these people running all of this diplomacy are also believing everyone is "out of money!" so neither side is really "playing with a full deck..." from our perspective...
rsp
Huh? It was the EU leaders that imposed sanctions on Russia, and they are surprised when Russia reacts? They can lift the sanctions at any time if they don't want their people to freeze.
Looks to me like Putin is standing out as the grownup against a background of immature brats, um leaders, acting out.
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Exactly right! Franko is in ideological lala land, as is often the case. And the second remark reveals a truly naively adolescent and utterly stupid disobliging remark. Typical of an arrogant know-it-all fool underestimating someone vastly his superior.
James human beings have memories... just because something happened in 2006 doesnt mean it is forgotten by 2014... some of the same people were involved...
Hey James tell me the guy is not an asshole:
http://www.today.com/news/bush-putin-dissed-our-pet-said-his-dog-was-bigger-2D79484676
???????
"My dog can beat your dog!"
???????
The guy is an asshole he is getting "kicked out of the club"... not taking sides just reporting the reality here as usual...
Mr. Franko
Exactly what "club" is Putin going to get kicked out of? We are talking about perhaps the most popular politician on planet earth. Not only is his approval rating at 87% in Russia, it's 92% in China. There are roughly four times as many Chinese who like Putin and approve of his handling of world affairs as there are Americans. If you mean the "club" that still takes seriously the American Empire, I am pretty sure he decided to leave that one about halfway through W's administration—too many stupid people in that club.
Seriously, the ONLY people who think that Putin is the bad guy in all of this are the mental giants who make political decisions based on attempts at humor by someone from a different culture. Me, I thought the crack about Barney was damn funny. But then, I am inclined to make fun of grown men who like dogs bred to give comfort to post-menupausal, pill-popping, Republican country club women.
Jonathan,
You are bigoted.
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