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Ivanka Trump (L), daughter of U.S. President Donald Trump, attends the Chinese Embassy's New Year reception with her daughter (front L) in Washington, D.C., the United States, Feb. 1, 2017. China and the United States should always cooperate in the face of challenges, Chinese Ambassador to the United States Cui Tiankai said Wednesday. (Xinhua/Liu Yang)
This case illustrates the problem with the hysterical, over the top accusations against Trump (he is Volodya's puppet; Trump is a boy from Brazil, Hitler reincarnated, run for the hills) based on nothing but animus: sooner or later (and in this case probably rather sooner) reality proves them pure bullshit. Instead of hurting Trump, these people are hurting themselves and, what is a lot worse, they are hurting the credibility of the opposition.
And it's not like one had no choice but to appeal to absurd accusations: Trump has plenty of seriously weak spots, even a fucking foreigner like me knows that. His own character is one. Why don't they make a big fuss about his cabinet (formed by billionaires)? What about taxes? What about his links to the Likud and an Israeli PM who is currently under police investigation for corruption? Trump's own conflicts of interest? Trump University?
all of that WSWS stuff is for the old senior citizen type people...
The new breakdown within the young is between nationalists and globalists they dont care about "workers" or working conditions or "inequality!" or economics ... those issues are not the ones being fought out on the streets...
Old US "labor" is a cohort in the Nationalist camp...
The new breakdown within the young is between nationalists and globalists they dont care about "workers" or working conditions or "inequality!" or economics ... those issues are not the ones being fought out on the streets...
Complete BS. They care, but is something that most young people agree about, that's why it's not "being fought out" (there is nothing to be fought out, most young people has already make their mind about it).
What maybe they don't agree over is on how this is resolved (and then you get the nationalist vs. globalist camp). But young people is mostly biased towards one end of the spectrum politically, there is not much that has to be fought out about just because a bunch of white supremacists make noise in internet or media, they are fringe in the young cohort.
And anyway, older generations are the ones which hold most direct and indirect power though and are the ones who have to make up their mind or will call the shoots.
Its right in the Whitehouse..... The Millennials are not materialist like the previous few generations... their eyes glaze over when you start to talk about economics... its details to them...
"maybe they don't agree over is on how this is resolved (and then you get the nationalist vs. globalist camp)."
LOL that argument is not about a particular economic solution... this is more of the "neo-liberal conspiracy!" fantasy created in the mind's of white haired academics...
They are fighting over national identity.. economics is down in the noise... they have been nurtured and trained in identity politics, title 7, title 9, etc..... we are what we train to be...
Spencer: "white people could have figured out another way to pick cotton..." ie the details of the economic systems are NOT the issue...
Look at Trump's economic nationalism all of these white hair idiot academic economists are going "but what about Comparative Advantage!" blah, blah, BS... and everybody could care less except other white hair idiot academic economists ...
Yeah, they don't care about "economics" they care about ECONOMICS. OFC they care, but when someone tells them "DOW 20000!" or "GDP growth!!!" they roll their eyes because it's complete BS. Talk them about real issues and/or issues that affect them and ofc they care.
I know because I'm young (not young enough to be a millennial though) and I do that myself all the time I speak to older people or read news and they start with that nonsense.
White supremacists/alt-right/etc. a minority (very minority) within young cohorts, young people is majorly biased towards "the left" (if that will change or not is other issue).
OFC it's all "details", because it's BS. I'm of the same opinion. Whereas you fix it by "taxing the rich" or "closing the borders" is a question on how you want to fix the current economic situation (from the PoV of young people, ofc white supremacists will say what they say).
alt-right is like Tom talks about back in the 60's "street theater"...
I dont understand what this phenom is (not trained in any of that..) but it is some sort of extreme representation of what is really going on... like satire or something... not sure...
I will stand by my view that the millennials are not warring over economics per se... they have been steeped/trained in identity politics and that is how they are...
Rowling's Harry Potter: "mud-bloods...", title 7, title 9, etc... the whole generation is racist...
The US military is essentially the security arm of US corporate interests. The MIC is a vast complex of weapons manufacturers, arms dealers, corporate industrialists, investors, media, politicians, lobbyists, government intelligence and counterintelligence (no pun intended) agencies, the Pentagon, etc.
NATO members are obligated to spend 2% of their GDP on defense. That's nearly half a trillion annually not including the US. Somebody has to sell them arms.
This is the last growth segment of the US economy. Enemies are good as they justify all this highly profitable waste.
I'd like to see this become part of the national conversation on 'economics'.
Anybody remember the "peace dividend" and notice how effectively it has been scrubbed from history? That required another manufactured war: KBR slant drilling Iraqi oil from Kuwait and April Glaspie green-lighting Saddam's invasion. The Cold War was over and suddenly we had to rebuild the military to fight multiple regional conflicts simultaneously. WMDs in Iraq and Syria, regime change, preemptive war, proxy wars using terrorists ...
The real difference between Trump and HRC if that she was already a star player, Trump had to be brought into the fold.
Oh yeah, no doubt about that, identity politics is very important to a lot of young people, and most of them are 'multiculturalists' in that sense and then you have fringe alt-right which is a minority within the cohort. How is this different over the previous history about warring about racial inequality and racism in the US? Is not a new issue, but when reactionaries are trying to regress on that front there is a reaction from those whose don't agree.
That does not mean they don't care about economic issues, is not an either/or issue. The "alt-right" cares mostly about politics because it's what defines it, there is nothing new about the alt-right, is the same story from the previous century. Their economic model is based on supremacy (and an udnerlying sentiment of superiority or zeitgest to rule over others). Is not hard to understand, when you scratch below the 'passive aggressive' communication (because if they really said what they think on mass media they know is not PC as they do not have enough support from the majority of the population).
They do as any demagogy: get some facts and even good points, and twist them to fit your agenda.
To me this is like "neoliberalism", there is nothing neo about neoliberalism, is just plain old liberalism and all those ideas are rooted on the enlightenment and the raise of the bourgeoisie class. "Alt-rights" are rooted on the colonial era and racial supremacy ideas, and if it has grown lately as a movement is because a reaction to current environment.
1. The Alt Right is of the political right in both the American and the European sense of the term. Socialists are not Alt Right. Progressives are not Alt Right. Liberals are not Alt Right. Communists, Marxists, Marxians, cultural Marxists, and neocons are not Alt Right.
2. The Alt Right is an ALTERNATIVE to the mainstream conservative movement in the USA that is nominally encapsulated by Russel Kirk's 10 Conservative Principles, but in reality has devolved towards progressivism. It is also an alternative to libertarianism.
3. The Alt Right is not a defensive attitude and rejects the concept of noble and principled defeat. It is a forward-thinking philosophy of offense, in every sense of that term. The Alt Right believes in victory through persistence and remaining in harmony with science, reality, cultural tradition, and the lessons of history.
4. The Alt Right believes Western civilization is the pinnacle of human achievement and supports its three foundational pillars: Christianity, the European nations, and the Graeco-Roman legacy.
5. The Alt Right is openly and avowedly nationalist. It supports all nationalisms and the right of all nations to exist, homogeneous and unadulterated by foreign invasion and immigration.
6. The Alt Right is anti-globalist. It opposes all groups who work for globalist ideals or globalist objectives.
7. The Alt Right is anti-equalitarian. It rejects the idea of equality for the same reason it rejects the ideas of unicorns and leprechauns, noting that human equality does not exist in any observable scientific, legal, material, intellectual, sexual, or spiritual form.
8. The Alt Right is scientodific. It presumptively accepts the current conclusions of the scientific method (scientody), while understanding a) these conclusions are liable to future revision, b) that scientistry is susceptible to corruption, and c) that the so-called scientific consensus is not based on scientody, but democracy, and is therefore intrinsically unscientific.
9. The Alt Right believes identity > culture > politics.
10. The Alt Right is opposed to the rule or domination of any native ethnic group by another, particularly in the sovereign homelands of the dominated peoples. The Alt Right is opposed to any non-native ethnic group obtaining excessive influence in any society through nepotism, tribalism, or any other means.
11. The Alt Right understands that diversity + proximity = war.
12. The Alt Right doesn't care what you think of it.
13. The Alt Right rejects international free trade and the free movement of peoples that free trade requires. The benefits of intranational free trade is not evidence for the benefits of international free trade.
14. The Alt Right believes we must secure the existence of white people and a future for white children.
15. The Alt Right does not believe in the general supremacy of any race, nation, people, or sub-species. Every race, nation, people, and human sub-species has its own unique strengths and weaknesses, and possesses the sovereign right to dwell unmolested in the native culture it prefers.
16. The Alt Right is a philosophy that values peace among the various nations of the world and opposes wars to impose the values of one nation upon another as well as efforts to exterminate individual nations through war, genocide, immigration, or genetic assimilation.
TL;DR: The Alt Right is a Western ideology that believes in science, history, reality, and the right of a genetic nation to exist and govern itself in its own interests.
"To me this is like "neoliberalism", there is nothing neo about neoliberalism, is just plain old liberalism and all those ideas are rooted on the enlightenment and the raise of the bourgeoisie class. "Alt-rights" are rooted on the colonial era and racial supremacy ideas, and if it has grown lately as a movement is because a reaction to current environment.
Same old shit."
That's exactly right. Lines are not being re-drawn, its just that space has been made available for certain ideologies to achieve a level of influence they have not had in a while.
@Matt said "they have been nurtured and trained in identity politics, title 7, title 9, etc..... we are what we train to be..."
Indeed. Both parties have egged on identity politics in recent decades. That's all they had until Trump came along. And Trump is doing his share of identity politics, too.
The problem with identity politics in America is that it's divisive because of our non-homogeneous culture. Identity politics might yield a slim victory for a political party, but then they get mired in gridlock and can't govern. Keep it up and we'll have secession and possibly a civil war.
Cernovich is a Trump apologist similar to Adams. I would like to believe that Trump has a master plan to fix everything, but this week has not been convincing.
"Cernovich is a Trump apologist similar to Adams. I would like to believe that Trump has a master plan to fix everything, but this week has not been convincing."
I think he's making it up as he goes along at this point throwing whatever crap at the wall he can and wanting to see the whole world burn by pissing off as many people as he can under the sun.
If you know about the definition of what a troll is, then that's how I see this guy. Trying to be provocative for the sake of being provocative even when it costs him political capital.
Back to the OT: who is really calling the shots in the Trump administration? Obviously Haley and some other cabinet members were chosen to please the base and be easily confirmed -- but do they have any real say in policy, or are they just figureheads?
All signs point to policy being made by a "kitchen cabinet" headed by Bannon, Kushner, and Ivanka. I suspect Tillerson and Mnuchin will be included in the kitchen cabinet, while the rest of the official cabinet are figureheads. What Haley says may not matter. Trump can use her to play "good cop, bad cop."
Haley spoke with forked tongue. One the one hand she condemned Russia in Ukraine, yet at the same time said administration desires good relations with Russia. WWIII surely not imminent on that score.
Very good point by point summary of the alt-right.
Another thing to consider is that alt-right in the broader sense is not limited to the US and it is not a pop philosophy either. While it employs political strategy and tactics, it has a carefully constructed policy based on an articulated worldview that justified by reason and evidence. And it also has historical precedent, it did not emerge from nowhere.
This is a pretty good summary by Allum Bokhari & Milo Yiannopoulos at Breibart that expands on the points above and goes into the political strategy and tactics. Btw, Milo was scheduled to speak at Berkeley recently and was disinvited after violent protests by the Left. This is becoming incendiary.
It's not possible to understand Trump and Bannon without understanding the alt-right. Trump has appointed a lot of traditional conservatives for continuity, but they do not express the underlying platform of Trump/Bannon.
The question now is whether Bannon has "captured" Trump or this is real Donald Trump.
A lot of people seem to think that Bannon is a bad influence on Trump and needs to be gotten rid of for Trump to "come around right." I think that is very likely wishful thinking.
Here is a link to the 16 alt-right points at Vox Populi if you want to save for future reference. We are going to be hearing a lot more about the alt-right in the next four years at least.
vox's views are diametrically opposed to your views (and most others who even take a minute to think on the subject of stable culture), Tom. Both of you will be proven wrong in the end, but vox's utopian vision has a better chance than yours, I'm afraid.
In a vacuum what vox pines for is a theoretical possibility: I mean the ethno-state is the history of the world until very recently, and still remains a large part of it. Of course vox is a realist and to get from point A to Point B will not be accomplished without resistance and biblical amounts of bloodshed--and even then, to my thinking, still won't be accomplished. In more practical terms it's simply mental masturbation.
Anyone can write a pamphlet and a list of bullet points and call himself "Movement of believers of spaghetti monster god". Political movements of all sorts left and right have done and keep doing that.
What is important is the underlying motives and how those express themselves when they get some power and how develop overtime as (if) they get more power.
Alt-right is a very old idea (the fear of "the other" and supremacy over "the other") rehashed and a reaction of multiculturalism and globalism. But as with any sor of idealism and ideology it just is mental masturbation.
The column 11 metals were globalist .... numismatic systems are nationalist...
Its headed nationalist.... sorry guys.
This a moment of conflict in the historical dialectic, which has been headed in the direction of globalism owing to innovation in communication and transportation technology. Now a reaction to that trend is arising, but that will only persist for awhile before the direction toward globalization resume as the dominant trend.
As I have been saying for some time, this is going to be the dominant factor in this century and globalization may take 500 years to complete the leveling.
The major obstacles will be tribalism that is genetically based (natural) and tribalism that is historically based on culture (nurture). This is the strongest force and it will involve violent conflict.
The other major obstacle is capitalism, since it produces winners and losers, and in many if not most cases, more losers than winners. This becomes a social and political issue especially in the down cycles in business and financial cycles.
Another principle factor is control and global dominance. As the world shrinks due to communications and transportation technology, the question of who is going to control the process becomes more pressing. The present dynamic is the US claiming that as an entitlement or even a right that the ruling elite is willing to go to war to enforce.
At this point in time the liberal world order that has been in place since the US became dominant in the West and then in the world with the collapse of the USSR is now breaking apart.
Dangerous time.
Moreover, the US is internally divided and factions of the ruling elite are warring with each other for control.
This can easily spin out of control.
Unless this situation begins to be resolved, confidence is going to decrease, raising the probability of shock (surprise). That's not good for either business or finance.
vox's utopian vision has a better chance than yours, I'm afraid.
My view is that the utopian part will only come after a very nasty phase transition. I am highly pessimistic in the intermediate run although optimistic in the long run (500 years).
The 500 year cycle of Western dominance called The Great Divergence is coming to an end. The coming 500 years will be one of globalization culminating in the entire world enjoying the same living standard and reciprocal relations. It's liklely going to be a rough ride getting there. Humans don't seem to like doing things the easy way.
500 years? There's essentially an infinite amount of moving parts to throw a monkey wrench into that time span. My prediction is that tribalism will go on a s long as humans inhabit the orb.
A political movement is not necessary to form white-only (i.e. wealthy-only) enclaves. I'm not opposed to voluntary segregation, I am opposed to nationalism, regardless of the flavor.
Identity politics are not important to me, unless the identity in question is based on class.
Most visible minorities live in urban areas. Canada is no exception. http://www12.statcan.gc.ca/nhs-enm/2011/as-sa/99-010-x/99-010-x2011001-eng.cfm
Peace is fragile when cities have poverty stricken ghettos. In that regard, Canada is doing better than the US, France, Germany, etc.
Do rural areas have an integration problem? Not where I live, which is 90-95% white. It is income level that divides people in rural Nova Scotia and elsewhere.
It's not something anyone is likely to forget. That has nothing to do with Ignacio's reference to the much vaunted "peace dividend". 9/11 was 2001. The peace dividend was being spoken of as soon as the Berlin Wall came down. So there was an approximate twelve year gap between the two events. Throughout which, Washington's elites were desperately looking around trying to find enemies that could justify a military budget which had little support among the public. Russia was in chaos and China wasn't even on the map. Almost nobody accepted Washington's new rationale for the continuation of the defence budget: the chaotic nature of the breakup of the Soviet Union, tensions between North and South Korea, tensions between Japan and South Korea, and lastly Islamic whack jobs, the last of which was considered particularly ludicrous because the whack jobs were armed with nothing more than old AK-47s and Toyota pickup trucks just as they are today.
To Washington's delight and everybody else's horror horror 9/11 happened. Now the defence budget could be ramped up because 15 Saudis and 4 Egyptians had hijacked planes with bolt cutters. The plan was hatched in Hamburg, and the terrorists trained in Florida. Afghanistan had nothing to do with this, and neither did Iraq. What should have been a criminal prosecution turned into two counter-productive wars that have now spawned tens of thousands of whack job jihadis, when before there were very few, and because the wars became such catastrophic failures a political decision was made by the US, UK, France, Turkey, the Gulf States and, of course the Wahhabi queen bee Saudi Arabia to deliberately create ISIS, as we know from disclosed top secret papers. But the Washington elite's were able to siphon trillions of dollars into the hands of the elites corporate interests that count. So unless someone wants to make an argument that trillions of dollars have to siphoned off into the most dangerous form of crony capitalism because of the danger of bolt cutters, then clearly the defence budget is too big. We know that it is common for the military, not the corporate side, has been known to complain that they are being forced to spend funds that they never asked for or wanted. The DoD makes a certain budget request, but the congress demands that they spend far more! Clearly it has nothing to do with defence.
I see RT are still giving Trump good media coverage even after Nikki Haley's performance.
It probably works out either way for RT and Russia more broadly. If Trump rows back, RT and Russia look prescient. If Trump continues in full retard mode, RT and Russia can claim to have always told the truth, even when it was not to their advantage, and will continue to do so now even when Russia's olive branch has been so cruelly trodden under foot.
Smart Russkies. Must be their KGB media heritage, knowing how to play different sides. Trump would call them "smart negotiators". Meanwhile the US media has Rachel Maddow and Sean Hannity! Doh!
500 years? There's essentially an infinite amount of moving parts to throw a monkey wrench into that time span. My prediction is that tribalism will go on a s long as humans inhabit the orb.
Of course, 500 years is just a guess. It is meant to say that generational change takes a long time to filter out.
Most of the world is operating on paradigms that are at least several hundred years old and some over a thousand years old.
Most people in the West are operating at a general level characteristic of 18th century thinking and traditional cultures are operating on cultural dynamics that are reflective of much older influences, e.g., religious tradition.
There are factors that could speed this up, but looking at the pace and characteristics of civilizational change up to the present, this kind of civilizational change takes a long time and involves considerable conflict, and it happens in fits and starts with back and forths, rather than proceeding linearly.
Geneticists foresee that in 500 years humans will all be shades of brown on a bell curve with a short thin tails and a small standard deviation.
I dont really think there is any reason to worry about this white nationalist stuff over a more then 20-25 year term. People of all political parties and backgrounds are marrying outside their race at rapidly increasing rates. Once these 45-65 yr olds (the heart of the movement) are dead and their children have oriental, hispanic or black spouses most of those 16 points are going to be moot. In a few more generations well more than half the planet is going to be mixed so.
The odd thing about these alt right is they denounce identity politics when its practiced by LGBT,Blacks, women etc but they are the biggest identity politics group on the planet........... typical white christian hypocrites.
Matt: "Iran can still get out of it if it makes a good deal with Trump..."
What more can they do other than commit national self-suicide? Their military budget is almost non-existent and their CIVILIAN nuclear programme is close to non-existent. They're only "crime" is their general anti-Wahhabism and aiding anti-jihadi groups.
"Carthage model in view...."
If Trump and chumps are intent on this madness, which it seems they are because all Iran's reaching out is quickly rebuffed, Iran will unleash hell throughout the region and will have nuclear weapons within years. That's expert military opinion, and hence their strong warnings against any attack on Iran. Is suppose it's no surprise after all Trump's macho grandstanding about "radical Islamic terrorism", Trump is nothing more than a Wahhabi jihadi stooge. Neoconservatives will soon be publicly rallying to Trump...
Iran is done unless Russia and China step up a la Syria (which isn't over yet)
I was recently reading that China has already said it will defend Iran even at the risk of WWIII.
China realizes that the US push against Iran and Russia is to isolate and China in preparation to finish it off. Then the US is permanently the global hegemon and can remain so indefinitely by preventing any country from acquiring the means to challenge the US either economically or militarily.
This is in fact the plan of the US elite and Russia and China are well aware of this.
This is setting up for WWIII and the war party in the US wants to have it out sooner than later because Russia and China are arming up quickly and they are concerned that the window of opportunity will close and the US will have lost its chance.
It's unclear were Trump is on this since he is the man of mixed messaging, partly in order to be unreadable.
all of that WSWS stuff is for the old senior citizen type people...
It's the kind of stuff kids should be paying attention to: their wages, their livelihood depend on that kind of "stuff for the old senior type people".
The Dems choose the Trump = Hitler, Trump is Volodya's puppet because it's over the top, because it is overly dramatic. Deep down the people who set those memes rolling know it's bullshit, but they don't care. The point is to scare the kids.
Exactly the same kind of shit the Republicans did with Obama: he is a Muslim/Kenyan, Commie-Nazi. You kiddies still remember that, don't you?
Well, Trump = Hitler is birtherism for Democrats. The same shit, from a different pile.
We keep on discussing bullshit, when the real stuff, the stuff that matters, is ignored. We simply go round and round.
If Trump starts war against Iran and we get WWIII then I'll be the first to say I've read him completely wrong on the issue and I'm more or less shocked.
If Trump starts war against Iran and we get WWIII then I'll be the first to say I've read him completely wrong on the issue and I'm more or less shocked.
Trump's not calling the shots. As Tom and I have both said this is the real battle.The deep state has been running the show since 1945, they're not just going to roll over for The Donald like some Slovene escort.
For historical perspective look up how three-term V.P. Henry Wallace was bounced off FDR's last campaign ticket by DEM party bosses.
A commentator (above) wrote 16 points of the Alt-Right. Let's have the courtesy of considering them.
This is point 7:
The Alt Right is anti-equalitarian. It rejects the idea of equality for the same reason it rejects the ideas of unicorns and leprechauns, noting that human equality does not exist in any observable scientific, legal, material, intellectual, sexual, or spiritual form.
It may sound a bit abstract, yes? Let's then move from the abstract to the concrete.
The idea, if I understand it well, is that people are not equal: some are more talented, others are less talented. Some are smarter, more entrepreneurial, thriftier. These people succeed in their struggle: they earn more, have more, because they deserve it, they won in the struggle.
That sounds pretty Darwinian, to me. To me, it sounds like Social Darwinism, to be precise. It also sounds quite neoclassical and neoliberal.
Normally, those at the bottom of the food chain should feel alarmed at that prospect and it's easy to understand why: there's a lot of income inequality (you don't see the words income and wealth anywhere in those 16 points).
Let's give that some more thought. The composition of the Alt-Right, according to Milo and Bokhari, as explained in their "Establishment Conservative's Guido to the Alt-Right" [*], is this:
(1) The intellectuals. (2) The natural conservatives. (3) The meme team. (4) The 1488rs.
The intellectuals are the thinking people: Oswald Spengler, H.L Mencken, Julius Evola, Sam Francis are the first four in a handful of names M&B mention.
Maybe one could add other extremely wealthy and successful to the list: kind of Peter Theil. As M&B put it, They're dangerously bright.
Intellectuals, after all, are not the best men of action.
What would keep that handful of dangerously bright people from stomping on the whole bunch of little people?
Milo and Bokhari put it like this:
Although the alt-right consists mostly of college-educated men, it sympathises with the white working classes and, based on our interviews, feels a sense of noblesse oblige.
Their feelings would. Yep. You read that right: their feelings.
Forget about the non-white working classes, let's focus strictly on the white working classes.
What does that "noblesse oblige" the leaders feel towards the white working classes mean?
It means they feel a deep moral commitment to the white working classes. Something like the pre-Revolution French nobles felt towards the peasantry and serfs. The white working classes cast in the role of peasants and serfs.
And we know that this time it's really different: Peter Theil surely felt a deep moral commitment when he bought properties in NZ, to escape eventual political turmoil in the US.
Looks to me like rationalizing social Darwinism, xenophobic nationalism, and "European" (white) entitlement because Western civilization is the pinnacle of human development.
At the same time, there is something in there for a lot of different identity groups that have enough overlapping or connected interests to constitute a social cohort and political faction.
Many are hardcore, but some are not hardcore about all of those foundational issues and don't self-identify as alt-right. Others may not be hardcore about any of them. But all in the social cohort are sympathetic enough to support alt-right candidates politically. It would be interesting to know the breakout of Trump voters on this.
All-Right is attacked as fascistic and white supremacist, but it looks more like that is just one of the interest groups in the coalition and perhaps a fringe one. Trump publicly disavowed it when pressed. I don't think that there is too much political advantage to be obtained from attacking a straw man.
Just Yesterday this appeared in the ABC News Online website:
'Malcolm Turnbull, you're not on your own': My own spray from Donald Trump By James Thomas http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-02-02/malcolm-turnbull-youre-not-on-your-own-my-own-call-with-trump/8235914
Thomas tells his and Malcolm Quinn's story with The Donald (what's with the name Malcolm and Trump?).
If one believes that story (and it's up to you to believe it or not, I take no sides), one can't help but feeling a bit sorry for Quinn, but one can't deny there's a good lesson in it: Noblesse oblige? My ass.
"10. The Alt Right is opposed to the rule or domination of any native ethnic group by another, particularly in the sovereign homelands of the dominated peoples. The Alt Right is opposed to any non-native ethnic group obtaining excessive influence in any society through nepotism, tribalism, or any other means."
Guess that means Good ol' USA goes back to the Indians!
#9 is close behind;
"9. The Alt Right believes identity > culture > politics."
The group that disparges identity politics when practiced by others put identity at the top of anything else when talking about whites. It would be funny if it weren't pathologic and sad
They are not materialist.... you guys with your "inequality!" are basing this "inequality!" on material parameters... the whole Picketty-Saez stuff is based on comparisons of material income/wealth...
"Labor!" is a materialist concept as it represents an occupation to make munnie for material provision...
They would say 'what good is labor if you are laboring in a nation without a unique identity...' 'labor', 'economics' are material matters of secondary concern to the non-material issue of 'identity'... this is what they all have grown up with... its 'identity politics' and they are well trained in it...
These millenials are not as materialistic as you boomers and GenXers.... you guys are ALL ABOUT material... that's all you guys are ever concerned about... material this and material that.... blah, blah, blah....
they dont care how much munnie these google/apple, etc Silicon Valley people, "banksters!".. have... they have no concern about any of that... they are not trying to tax "the rich!" and redistribute and compare themselves to others based on material terms....
Boomers and GenXers are materialistic and shallow.... these millennials are about identity and social networks.... material is secondary...
Straight from Milo's and Bokhari's mouth. But some credit Paul Gottfried, too:
The Alt-Right's Jewish Godfather By Jacob Siegel http://www.tabletmag.com/jewish-news-and-politics/218712/spencer-gottfried-alt-right
I imagine 1488rs must feel let down.
Greg said...
I love all of them, Greg.
Matt Franko said...
Boomers and GenXers are materialistic and shallow.... these millennials are about identity and social networks.... material is secondary...
I am totally materialistic and shallow. I've been like that since I was a kid, and I'm too old to change.
Which doesn't mean I can't change at all. I never had those urges (except for Brad DeLong, who, on top of being a bona fide genius, is hot) but If I were gay, I'd sing with Madonna "I'm a material girl".
Therefore, I'm left with Watto, from Star Wars Episode I: The Phantom Menace:
What? You think you're some kind of Jedi, waving your hands around like that? I'm a Toydarian, mind tricks don't work on me. Only money. No money, no parts, no deal.
Matt, I dont know which Gen-Yers you’re talking to—and I talk to a lot—but they care very much about money, or your dismissive and ridiculous “munnie.” You’re naive if you believe otherwise. For the girls, their makeup costs a fortune (for selfies) and for boys, do does their beer and gas (depending on the state they live in). Probably absorbed by their parents at the moment, out of self-understanding of their absorbed concerns. They’re a societal bomb waiting to go off.
Ignacio, apologies. And to Noah who made a very pertinent point.
Tom: "China realizes that the US push against Iran and Russia is to isolate and China in preparation to finish it off. Then the US is permanently the global hegemon and can remain so indefinitely by preventing any country from acquiring the means to challenge the US either economically or militarily."
Perfectly put, and many analysts see it this way. China and Russia will not only step up, they'll step up in a big way. The more Washington ratchets this up, the more Russia and China will step the fuck up. They will not back down, for the simple reason that they can't: an attack on Iran is a de facto attack on Russia and China, and everyone knows it. Trump will have to back down. The question is whether he has the character and temperament to do so, because he's probably never had to back down from anything in his life.
All may not be lost, though. Now that the First Prostitute has made a "loser" out of him, he may completely crack up and in the process become a sane individual completely averse to attacking Iran and making China and Russia unnecessarily nervous by playing war games that look more like war than games in their backyards.
MRW yes they know they need munnie and they want money ofc for means of subsistence/robust provision but they dont see the pursuit of munnie as their primary reason for living... they see their primary pursuit as communicating their identities via their social networks...
Munnie should just be there....
So they are like us in that regard they dont see munnie as the big deal... but they dont understand it (numismatic systems) technically like we do (not trained in that...) ... so we probably have good potential to communicate our knowledge to them as they dont have a "munnie is everything" bias about them...
they are not USD zombies... they have different priorities and munnie is not at the top of the list... yes it is on the list but not at the top...
79 comments:
No surprise given Haley's record.
The question is, who is really calling the shots in the Trump administration, vs. who is a figurehead to keep the base happy?
We'll just have to wait and see.
DJT is the man of mixed messages.
Ivanka Trump visits Chinese Embassy
Ivanka Trump (L), daughter of U.S. President Donald Trump, attends the Chinese Embassy's New Year reception with her daughter (front L) in Washington, D.C., the United States, Feb. 1, 2017. China and the United States should always cooperate in the face of challenges, Chinese Ambassador to the United States Cui Tiankai said Wednesday. (Xinhua/Liu Yang)
This case illustrates the problem with the hysterical, over the top accusations against Trump (he is Volodya's puppet; Trump is a boy from Brazil, Hitler reincarnated, run for the hills) based on nothing but animus: sooner or later (and in this case probably rather sooner) reality proves them pure bullshit. Instead of hurting Trump, these people are hurting themselves and, what is a lot worse, they are hurting the credibility of the opposition.
And it's not like one had no choice but to appeal to absurd accusations: Trump has plenty of seriously weak spots, even a fucking foreigner like me knows that. His own character is one. Why don't they make a big fuss about his cabinet (formed by billionaires)? What about taxes? What about his links to the Likud and an Israeli PM who is currently under police investigation for corruption? Trump's own conflicts of interest? Trump University?
WSWS has plenty of articles referring to Trump's billionaire cabinet picks.
all of that WSWS stuff is for the old senior citizen type people...
The new breakdown within the young is between nationalists and globalists they dont care about "workers" or working conditions or "inequality!" or economics ... those issues are not the ones being fought out on the streets...
Old US "labor" is a cohort in the Nationalist camp...
The lines are being redrawn....
The new breakdown within the young is between nationalists and globalists they dont care about "workers" or working conditions or "inequality!" or economics ... those issues are not the ones being fought out on the streets...
Complete BS. They care, but is something that most young people agree about, that's why it's not "being fought out" (there is nothing to be fought out, most young people has already make their mind about it).
What maybe they don't agree over is on how this is resolved (and then you get the nationalist vs. globalist camp). But young people is mostly biased towards one end of the spectrum politically, there is not much that has to be fought out about just because a bunch of white supremacists make noise in internet or media, they are fringe in the young cohort.
And anyway, older generations are the ones which hold most direct and indirect power though and are the ones who have to make up their mind or will call the shoots.
Here this is what is going on:
http://www.rawstory.com/2017/02/texas-high-school-students-make-nazi-salute-and-shout-hail-trump-in-senior-class-photos/
Economics is gone from the scene...
Ignacio the alt-right is tip of the spear...
Here is the blade:
http://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/2/2/14472404/steve-bannon-legal-immigration-problem
Its right in the Whitehouse..... The Millennials are not materialist like the previous few generations... their eyes glaze over when you start to talk about economics... its details to them...
"maybe they don't agree over is on how this is resolved (and then you get the nationalist vs. globalist camp)."
LOL that argument is not about a particular economic solution... this is more of the "neo-liberal conspiracy!" fantasy created in the mind's of white haired academics...
They are fighting over national identity.. economics is down in the noise... they have been nurtured and trained in identity politics, title 7, title 9, etc..... we are what we train to be...
Ignacio,
Here 12:00:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=27RXiA0qkrM&t=1102s
Spencer: "white people could have figured out another way to pick cotton..." ie the details of the economic systems are NOT the issue...
Look at Trump's economic nationalism all of these white hair idiot academic economists are going "but what about Comparative Advantage!" blah, blah, BS... and everybody could care less except other white hair idiot academic economists ...
Yeah, they don't care about "economics" they care about ECONOMICS. OFC they care, but when someone tells them "DOW 20000!" or "GDP growth!!!" they roll their eyes because it's complete BS. Talk them about real issues and/or issues that affect them and ofc they care.
I know because I'm young (not young enough to be a millennial though) and I do that myself all the time I speak to older people or read news and they start with that nonsense.
White supremacists/alt-right/etc. a minority (very minority) within young cohorts, young people is majorly biased towards "the left" (if that will change or not is other issue).
OFC it's all "details", because it's BS. I'm of the same opinion. Whereas you fix it by "taxing the rich" or "closing the borders" is a question on how you want to fix the current economic situation (from the PoV of young people, ofc white supremacists will say what they say).
Bernie the "socialist" would've crushed the "nationalists", and Millennials would've been his biggest supporters.
Here's a crowd of people who don't care:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0eA79y8WOCY
Bernie's full speech at the DNC 2016:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9rtXaPV5SYM
Shoulda woulda coulda...
Ignacio,
alt-right is like Tom talks about back in the 60's "street theater"...
I dont understand what this phenom is (not trained in any of that..) but it is some sort of extreme representation of what is really going on... like satire or something... not sure...
I will stand by my view that the millennials are not warring over economics per se... they have been steeped/trained in identity politics and that is how they are...
Rowling's Harry Potter: "mud-bloods...", title 7, title 9, etc... the whole generation is racist...
The US military is essentially the security arm of US corporate interests. The MIC is a vast complex of weapons manufacturers, arms dealers, corporate industrialists, investors, media, politicians, lobbyists, government intelligence and counterintelligence (no pun intended) agencies, the Pentagon, etc.
NATO members are obligated to spend 2% of their GDP on defense. That's nearly half a trillion annually not including the US. Somebody has to sell them arms.
This is the last growth segment of the US economy. Enemies are good as they justify all this highly profitable waste.
I'd like to see this become part of the national conversation on 'economics'.
Anybody remember the "peace dividend" and notice how effectively it has been scrubbed from history? That required another manufactured war: KBR slant drilling Iraqi oil from Kuwait and April Glaspie green-lighting Saddam's invasion. The Cold War was over and suddenly we had to rebuild the military to fight multiple regional conflicts simultaneously. WMDs in Iraq and Syria, regime change, preemptive war, proxy wars using terrorists ...
The real difference between Trump and HRC if that she was already a star player, Trump had to be brought into the fold.
Here this guy is alt-right and back on Tom's topic of post:
https://twitter.com/Cernovich/status/827431676758237184
"Globalists will ...."
"Anybody remember the "peace dividend""
anybody remember Sept 11?
and its not "even!" for that I hate to tell you...
Oh yeah, no doubt about that, identity politics is very important to a lot of young people, and most of them are 'multiculturalists' in that sense and then you have fringe alt-right which is a minority within the cohort. How is this different over the previous history about warring about racial inequality and racism in the US? Is not a new issue, but when reactionaries are trying to regress on that front there is a reaction from those whose don't agree.
That does not mean they don't care about economic issues, is not an either/or issue. The "alt-right" cares mostly about politics because it's what defines it, there is nothing new about the alt-right, is the same story from the previous century. Their economic model is based on supremacy (and an udnerlying sentiment of superiority or zeitgest to rule over others). Is not hard to understand, when you scratch below the 'passive aggressive' communication (because if they really said what they think on mass media they know is not PC as they do not have enough support from the majority of the population).
They do as any demagogy: get some facts and even good points, and twist them to fit your agenda.
To me this is like "neoliberalism", there is nothing neo about neoliberalism, is just plain old liberalism and all those ideas are rooted on the enlightenment and the raise of the bourgeoisie class. "Alt-rights" are rooted on the colonial era and racial supremacy ideas, and if it has grown lately as a movement is because a reaction to current environment.
Same old shit.
Here are the Alt-Right 16 points, as per Vox Day:
1. The Alt Right is of the political right in both the American and the European sense of the term. Socialists are not Alt Right. Progressives are not Alt Right. Liberals are not Alt Right. Communists, Marxists, Marxians, cultural Marxists, and neocons are not Alt Right.
2. The Alt Right is an ALTERNATIVE to the mainstream conservative movement in the USA that is nominally encapsulated by Russel Kirk's 10 Conservative Principles, but in reality has devolved towards progressivism. It is also an alternative to libertarianism.
3. The Alt Right is not a defensive attitude and rejects the concept of noble and principled defeat. It is a forward-thinking philosophy of offense, in every sense of that term. The Alt Right believes in victory through persistence and remaining in harmony with science, reality, cultural tradition, and the lessons of history.
4. The Alt Right believes Western civilization is the pinnacle of human achievement and supports its three foundational pillars: Christianity, the European nations, and the Graeco-Roman legacy.
5. The Alt Right is openly and avowedly nationalist. It supports all nationalisms and the right of all nations to exist, homogeneous and unadulterated by foreign invasion and immigration.
6. The Alt Right is anti-globalist. It opposes all groups who work for globalist ideals or globalist objectives.
7. The Alt Right is anti-equalitarian. It rejects the idea of equality for the same reason it rejects the ideas of unicorns and leprechauns, noting that human equality does not exist in any observable scientific, legal, material, intellectual, sexual, or spiritual form.
8. The Alt Right is scientodific. It presumptively accepts the current conclusions of the scientific method (scientody), while understanding a) these conclusions are liable to future revision, b) that scientistry is susceptible to corruption, and c) that the so-called scientific consensus is not based on scientody, but democracy, and is therefore intrinsically unscientific.
9. The Alt Right believes identity > culture > politics.
10. The Alt Right is opposed to the rule or domination of any native ethnic group by another, particularly in the sovereign homelands of the dominated peoples. The Alt Right is opposed to any non-native ethnic group obtaining excessive influence in any society through nepotism, tribalism, or any other means.
11. The Alt Right understands that diversity + proximity = war.
12. The Alt Right doesn't care what you think of it.
13. The Alt Right rejects international free trade and the free movement of peoples that free trade requires. The benefits of intranational free trade is not evidence for the benefits of international free trade.
14. The Alt Right believes we must secure the existence of white people and a future for white children.
15. The Alt Right does not believe in the general supremacy of any race, nation, people, or sub-species. Every race, nation, people, and human sub-species has its own unique strengths and weaknesses, and possesses the sovereign right to dwell unmolested in the native culture it prefers.
16. The Alt Right is a philosophy that values peace among the various nations of the world and opposes wars to impose the values of one nation upon another as well as efforts to exterminate individual nations through war, genocide, immigration, or genetic assimilation.
TL;DR: The Alt Right is a Western ideology that believes in science, history, reality, and the right of a genetic nation to exist and govern itself in its own interests.
"To me this is like "neoliberalism", there is nothing neo about neoliberalism, is just plain old liberalism and all those ideas are rooted on the enlightenment and the raise of the bourgeoisie class. "Alt-rights" are rooted on the colonial era and racial supremacy ideas, and if it has grown lately as a movement is because a reaction to current environment.
Same old shit."
That's exactly right. Lines are not being re-drawn, its just that space has been made available for certain ideologies to achieve a level of influence they have not had in a while.
@Matt said "they have been nurtured and trained in identity politics, title 7, title 9, etc..... we are what we train to be..."
Indeed. Both parties have egged on identity politics in recent decades. That's all they had until Trump came along. And Trump is doing his share of identity politics, too.
The problem with identity politics in America is that it's divisive because of our non-homogeneous culture. Identity politics might yield a slim victory for a political party, but then they get mired in gridlock and can't govern. Keep it up and we'll have secession and possibly a civil war.
Cernovich is a Trump apologist similar to Adams. I would like to believe that Trump has a master plan to fix everything, but this week has not been convincing.
"Cernovich is a Trump apologist similar to Adams. I would like to believe that Trump has a master plan to fix everything, but this week has not been convincing."
I think he's making it up as he goes along at this point throwing whatever crap at the wall he can and wanting to see the whole world burn by pissing off as many people as he can under the sun.
If you know about the definition of what a troll is, then that's how I see this guy. Trying to be provocative for the sake of being provocative even when it costs him political capital.
Back to the OT: who is really calling the shots in the Trump administration? Obviously Haley and some other cabinet members were chosen to please the base and be easily confirmed -- but do they have any real say in policy, or are they just figureheads?
All signs point to policy being made by a "kitchen cabinet" headed by Bannon, Kushner, and Ivanka. I suspect Tillerson and Mnuchin will be included in the kitchen cabinet, while the rest of the official cabinet are figureheads. What Haley says may not matter. Trump can use her to play "good cop, bad cop."
@Penguin pop
That's what narcissists do, they are trolls by nature. The world is an extension of theirself and for their own amusement.
anybody remember Sept 11?
And what was that the result of? Please don't tell me it was because "they hate freedom".
Haley spoke with forked tongue. One the one hand she condemned Russia in Ukraine, yet at the same time said administration desires good relations with Russia. WWIII surely not imminent on that score.
It's the Iran shit that is far more troubling.
The column 11 metals were globalist .... numismatic systems are nationalist...
Its headed nationalist.... sorry guys...
Mal imo step 1 will be a swarm of harassing Iranian boats turned into fish food...
@Peaceful Poster
Very good point by point summary of the alt-right.
Another thing to consider is that alt-right in the broader sense is not limited to the US and it is not a pop philosophy either. While it employs political strategy and tactics, it has a carefully constructed policy based on an articulated worldview that justified by reason and evidence. And it also has historical precedent, it did not emerge from nowhere.
This is a pretty good summary by Allum Bokhari & Milo Yiannopoulos at Breibart that expands on the points above and goes into the political strategy and tactics. Btw, Milo was scheduled to speak at Berkeley recently and was disinvited after violent protests by the Left. This is becoming incendiary.
http://www.breitbart.com/tech/2016/03/29/an-establishment-conservatives-guide-to-the-alt-right/
It's not possible to understand Trump and Bannon without understanding the alt-right. Trump has appointed a lot of traditional conservatives for continuity, but they do not express the underlying platform of Trump/Bannon.
The question now is whether Bannon has "captured" Trump or this is real Donald Trump.
A lot of people seem to think that Bannon is a bad influence on Trump and needs to be gotten rid of for Trump to "come around right." I think that is very likely wishful thinking.
Here is a link to the 16 alt-right points at Vox Populi if you want to save for future reference. We are going to be hearing a lot more about the alt-right in the next four years at least.
http://voxday.blogspot.com/2016/08/what-alt-right-is.html
vox's views are diametrically opposed to your views (and most others who even take a minute to think on the subject of stable culture), Tom. Both of you will be proven wrong in the end, but vox's utopian vision has a better chance than yours, I'm afraid.
In a vacuum what vox pines for is a theoretical possibility: I mean the ethno-state is the history of the world until very recently, and still remains a large part of it. Of course vox is a realist and to get from point A to Point B will not be accomplished without resistance and biblical amounts of bloodshed--and even then, to my thinking, still won't be accomplished. In more practical terms it's simply mental masturbation.
Anyone can write a pamphlet and a list of bullet points and call himself "Movement of believers of spaghetti monster god". Political movements of all sorts left and right have done and keep doing that.
What is important is the underlying motives and how those express themselves when they get some power and how develop overtime as (if) they get more power.
Alt-right is a very old idea (the fear of "the other" and supremacy over "the other") rehashed and a reaction of multiculturalism and globalism. But as with any sor of idealism and ideology it just is mental masturbation.
The column 11 metals were globalist .... numismatic systems are nationalist...
Its headed nationalist.... sorry guys.
This a moment of conflict in the historical dialectic, which has been headed in the direction of globalism owing to innovation in communication and transportation technology. Now a reaction to that trend is arising, but that will only persist for awhile before the direction toward globalization resume as the dominant trend.
As I have been saying for some time, this is going to be the dominant factor in this century and globalization may take 500 years to complete the leveling.
The major obstacles will be tribalism that is genetically based (natural) and tribalism that is historically based on culture (nurture). This is the strongest force and it will involve violent conflict.
The other major obstacle is capitalism, since it produces winners and losers, and in many if not most cases, more losers than winners. This becomes a social and political issue especially in the down cycles in business and financial cycles.
Another principle factor is control and global dominance. As the world shrinks due to communications and transportation technology, the question of who is going to control the process becomes more pressing. The present dynamic is the US claiming that as an entitlement or even a right that the ruling elite is willing to go to war to enforce.
At this point in time the liberal world order that has been in place since the US became dominant in the West and then in the world with the collapse of the USSR is now breaking apart.
Dangerous time.
Moreover, the US is internally divided and factions of the ruling elite are warring with each other for control.
This can easily spin out of control.
Unless this situation begins to be resolved, confidence is going to decrease, raising the probability of shock (surprise). That's not good for either business or finance.
@Peaceful Poster
This is rewarmed White Nationalism. We all know what it will devolve into if too many people sit by passively.
vox's utopian vision has a better chance than yours, I'm afraid.
My view is that the utopian part will only come after a very nasty phase transition. I am highly pessimistic in the intermediate run although optimistic in the long run (500 years).
The 500 year cycle of Western dominance called The Great Divergence is coming to an end. The coming 500 years will be one of globalization culminating in the entire world enjoying the same living standard and reciprocal relations. It's liklely going to be a rough ride getting there. Humans don't seem to like doing things the easy way.
Bob,
And white nationalism as opposed to the myriad identity movement out there abounding is wrong or not to be expected, why?
Tom,
500 years? There's essentially an infinite amount of moving parts to throw a monkey wrench into that time span. My prediction is that tribalism will go on a s long as humans inhabit the orb.
Malmo,
A political movement is not necessary to form white-only (i.e. wealthy-only) enclaves. I'm not opposed to voluntary segregation, I am opposed to nationalism, regardless of the flavor.
Identity politics are not important to me, unless the identity in question is based on class.
500 year predictions are good for what? We'll all be dead and Tom will be so old he'll have forgotten all about it.
Bob,
De facto segregation is how it works in America. I have zero problem with it. In fact it's what keeps the peace, relatively speaking:
http://demographics.coopercenter.org/Racial-Dot-Map/?q=demographics/Racial-Dot-Map
Most visible minorities live in urban areas. Canada is no exception.
http://www12.statcan.gc.ca/nhs-enm/2011/as-sa/99-010-x/99-010-x2011001-eng.cfm
Peace is fragile when cities have poverty stricken ghettos. In that regard, Canada is doing better than the US, France, Germany, etc.
Do rural areas have an integration problem?
Not where I live, which is 90-95% white. It is income level that divides people in rural Nova Scotia and elsewhere.
Matt; "anybody remember Sept 11?"
It's not something anyone is likely to forget. That has nothing to do with Ignacio's reference to the much vaunted "peace dividend". 9/11 was 2001. The peace dividend was being spoken of as soon as the Berlin Wall came down. So there was an approximate twelve year gap between the two events. Throughout which, Washington's elites were desperately looking around trying to find enemies that could justify a military budget which had little support among the public. Russia was in chaos and China wasn't even on the map. Almost nobody accepted Washington's new rationale for the continuation of the defence budget: the chaotic nature of the breakup of the Soviet Union, tensions between North and South Korea, tensions between Japan and South Korea, and lastly Islamic whack jobs, the last of which was considered particularly ludicrous because the whack jobs were armed with nothing more than old AK-47s and Toyota pickup trucks just as they are today.
To Washington's delight and everybody else's horror horror 9/11 happened. Now the defence budget could be ramped up because 15 Saudis and 4 Egyptians had hijacked planes with bolt cutters. The plan was hatched in Hamburg, and the terrorists trained in Florida. Afghanistan had nothing to do with this, and neither did Iraq. What should have been a criminal prosecution turned into two counter-productive wars that have now spawned tens of thousands of whack job jihadis, when before there were very few, and because the wars became such catastrophic failures a political decision was made by the US, UK, France, Turkey, the Gulf States and, of course the Wahhabi queen bee Saudi Arabia to deliberately create ISIS, as we know from disclosed top secret papers. But the Washington elite's were able to siphon trillions of dollars into the hands of the elites corporate interests that count. So unless someone wants to make an argument that trillions of dollars have to siphoned off into the most dangerous form of crony capitalism because of the danger of bolt cutters, then clearly the defence budget is too big. We know that it is common for the military, not the corporate side, has been known to complain that they are being forced to spend funds that they never asked for or wanted. The DoD makes a certain budget request, but the congress demands that they spend far more! Clearly it has nothing to do with defence.
I see RT are still giving Trump good media coverage even after Nikki Haley's performance.
It probably works out either way for RT and Russia more broadly. If Trump rows back, RT and Russia look prescient. If Trump continues in full retard mode, RT and Russia can claim to have always told the truth, even when it was not to their advantage, and will continue to do so now even when Russia's olive branch has been so cruelly trodden under foot.
Smart Russkies. Must be their KGB media heritage, knowing how to play different sides. Trump would call them "smart negotiators". Meanwhile the US media has Rachel Maddow and Sean Hannity! Doh!
Well if the munnie is the issue then you are with Trump and next time the US will just take the oil to make the books balance...
Iran can still get out of it if it makes a good deal with Trump... otherwise it is not looking good for Iran imo... Carthage model in view....
500 years? There's essentially an infinite amount of moving parts to throw a monkey wrench into that time span. My prediction is that tribalism will go on a s long as humans inhabit the orb.
Of course, 500 years is just a guess. It is meant to say that generational change takes a long time to filter out.
Most of the world is operating on paradigms that are at least several hundred years old and some over a thousand years old.
Most people in the West are operating at a general level characteristic of 18th century thinking and traditional cultures are operating on cultural dynamics that are reflective of much older influences, e.g., religious tradition.
There are factors that could speed this up, but looking at the pace and characteristics of civilizational change up to the present, this kind of civilizational change takes a long time and involves considerable conflict, and it happens in fits and starts with back and forths, rather than proceeding linearly.
Geneticists foresee that in 500 years humans will all be shades of brown on a bell curve with a short thin tails and a small standard deviation.
I dont really think there is any reason to worry about this white nationalist stuff over a more then 20-25 year term. People of all political parties and backgrounds are marrying outside their race at rapidly increasing rates. Once these 45-65 yr olds (the heart of the movement) are dead and their children have oriental, hispanic or black spouses most of those 16 points are going to be moot. In a few more generations well more than half the planet is going to be mixed so.
The odd thing about these alt right is they denounce identity politics when its practiced by LGBT,Blacks, women etc but they are the biggest identity politics group on the planet........... typical white christian hypocrites.
Greg,
Stop watching House Hunters.
"Geneticists foresee that in 500 years humans will all be shades of brown on a bell curve with a short thin tails and a small standard deviation."
LOL.
Matt: "Iran can still get out of it if it makes a good deal with Trump..."
What more can they do other than commit national self-suicide? Their military budget is almost non-existent and their CIVILIAN nuclear programme is close to non-existent. They're only "crime" is their general anti-Wahhabism and aiding anti-jihadi groups.
"Carthage model in view...."
If Trump and chumps are intent on this madness, which it seems they are because all Iran's reaching out is quickly rebuffed, Iran will unleash hell throughout the region and will have nuclear weapons within years. That's expert military opinion, and hence their strong warnings against any attack on Iran. Is suppose it's no surprise after all Trump's macho grandstanding about "radical Islamic terrorism", Trump is nothing more than a Wahhabi jihadi stooge. Neoconservatives will soon be publicly rallying to Trump...
No deal possible other than regime change. Iran is in the combined sights of Israel and Saudi Arabia, who jointly run US foreign policy.
Not sure they run it but the alliance is in full effect. Close ties all around.
Iran is done unless Russia and China step up a la Syria (which isn't over yet).
@John,
Just for the record it was Noah Way who mentioned "peace dividend". Good post anyway.
Betcha China and Russia don't step up.
Iran is done unless Russia and China step up a la Syria (which isn't over yet)
I was recently reading that China has already said it will defend Iran even at the risk of WWIII.
China realizes that the US push against Iran and Russia is to isolate and China in preparation to finish it off. Then the US is permanently the global hegemon and can remain so indefinitely by preventing any country from acquiring the means to challenge the US either economically or militarily.
This is in fact the plan of the US elite and Russia and China are well aware of this.
This is setting up for WWIII and the war party in the US wants to have it out sooner than later because Russia and China are arming up quickly and they are concerned that the window of opportunity will close and the US will have lost its chance.
It's unclear were Trump is on this since he is the man of mixed messaging, partly in order to be unreadable.
Matt Franko said...
all of that WSWS stuff is for the old senior citizen type people...
It's the kind of stuff kids should be paying attention to: their wages, their livelihood depend on that kind of "stuff for the old senior type people".
The Dems choose the Trump = Hitler, Trump is Volodya's puppet because it's over the top, because it is overly dramatic. Deep down the people who set those memes rolling know it's bullshit, but they don't care. The point is to scare the kids.
Exactly the same kind of shit the Republicans did with Obama: he is a Muslim/Kenyan, Commie-Nazi. You kiddies still remember that, don't you?
Well, Trump = Hitler is birtherism for Democrats. The same shit, from a different pile.
We keep on discussing bullshit, when the real stuff, the stuff that matters, is ignored. We simply go round and round.
If Trump starts war against Iran and we get WWIII then I'll be the first to say I've read him completely wrong on the issue and I'm more or less shocked.
Magpie I'm a materialist too so I hear you...
But I'm a GenXer ... it's hard to figure out what is important to these millennials without being one...
The way it looks to me is they are not materialistic primarily ...
Here, Matt, let's take a stroll down memory lane:
https://www.google.com/search?q=obama+communist+nazi
If Trump starts war against Iran and we get WWIII then I'll be the first to say I've read him completely wrong on the issue and I'm more or less shocked.
Trump's not calling the shots. As Tom and I have both said this is the real battle.The deep state has been running the show since 1945, they're not just going to roll over for The Donald like some Slovene escort.
For historical perspective look up how three-term V.P. Henry Wallace was bounced off FDR's last campaign ticket by DEM party bosses.
WTF is House Hunters!
A commentator (above) wrote 16 points of the Alt-Right. Let's have the courtesy of considering them.
This is point 7:
The Alt Right is anti-equalitarian. It rejects the idea of equality for the same reason it rejects the ideas of unicorns and leprechauns, noting that human equality does not exist in any observable scientific, legal, material, intellectual, sexual, or spiritual form.
It may sound a bit abstract, yes? Let's then move from the abstract to the concrete.
The idea, if I understand it well, is that people are not equal: some are more talented, others are less talented. Some are smarter, more entrepreneurial, thriftier. These people succeed in their struggle: they earn more, have more, because they deserve it, they won in the struggle.
That sounds pretty Darwinian, to me. To me, it sounds like Social Darwinism, to be precise. It also sounds quite neoclassical and neoliberal.
Normally, those at the bottom of the food chain should feel alarmed at that prospect and it's easy to understand why: there's a lot of income inequality (you don't see the words income and wealth anywhere in those 16 points).
(To be continued)
Let's give that some more thought. The composition of the Alt-Right, according to Milo and Bokhari, as explained in their "Establishment Conservative's Guido to the Alt-Right" [*], is this:
(1) The intellectuals.
(2) The natural conservatives.
(3) The meme team.
(4) The 1488rs.
The intellectuals are the thinking people: Oswald Spengler, H.L Mencken, Julius Evola, Sam Francis are the first four in a handful of names M&B mention.
Maybe one could add other extremely wealthy and successful to the list: kind of Peter Theil. As M&B put it, They're dangerously bright.
Intellectuals, after all, are not the best men of action.
What would keep that handful of dangerously bright people from stomping on the whole bunch of little people?
Milo and Bokhari put it like this:
Although the alt-right consists mostly of college-educated men, it sympathises with the white working classes and, based on our interviews, feels a sense of noblesse oblige.
Their feelings would. Yep. You read that right: their feelings.
Forget about the non-white working classes, let's focus strictly on the white working classes.
What does that "noblesse oblige" the leaders feel towards the white working classes mean?
It means they feel a deep moral commitment to the white working classes. Something like the pre-Revolution French nobles felt towards the peasantry and serfs. The white working classes cast in the role of peasants and serfs.
And we know that this time it's really different: Peter Theil surely felt a deep moral commitment when he bought properties in NZ, to escape eventual political turmoil in the US.
After all, The Donald is a deeply moral man.
[*] http://www.breitbart.com/tech/2016/03/29/an-establishment-conservatives-guide-to-the-alt-right/
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Then, there's this
12. The Alt Right doesn't care what you think of it.
Fair enough. But I wouldn't count on getting my support.
Looks to me like rationalizing social Darwinism, xenophobic nationalism, and "European" (white) entitlement because Western civilization is the pinnacle of human development.
At the same time, there is something in there for a lot of different identity groups that have enough overlapping or connected interests to constitute a social cohort and political faction.
Many are hardcore, but some are not hardcore about all of those foundational issues and don't self-identify as alt-right. Others may not be hardcore about any of them. But all in the social cohort are sympathetic enough to support alt-right candidates politically. It would be interesting to know the breakout of Trump voters on this.
All-Right is attacked as fascistic and white supremacist, but it looks more like that is just one of the interest groups in the coalition and perhaps a fringe one. Trump publicly disavowed it when pressed. I don't think that there is too much political advantage to be obtained from attacking a straw man.
Speaking of which.
Just Yesterday this appeared in the ABC News Online website:
'Malcolm Turnbull, you're not on your own': My own spray from Donald Trump
By James Thomas
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-02-02/malcolm-turnbull-youre-not-on-your-own-my-own-call-with-trump/8235914
Thomas tells his and Malcolm Quinn's story with The Donald (what's with the name Malcolm and Trump?).
If one believes that story (and it's up to you to believe it or not, I take no sides), one can't help but feeling a bit sorry for Quinn, but one can't deny there's a good lesson in it: Noblesse oblige? My ass.
Supremacist belief systems have been with us a long time. Changing the label doesn't change the message.
I'm all for noblesse oblige, Jacobin style.
@Magpie
#10 is my favorite;
"10. The Alt Right is opposed to the rule or domination of any native ethnic group by another, particularly in the sovereign homelands of the dominated peoples. The Alt Right is opposed to any non-native ethnic group obtaining excessive influence in any society through nepotism, tribalism, or any other means."
Guess that means Good ol' USA goes back to the Indians!
#9 is close behind;
"9. The Alt Right believes identity > culture > politics."
The group that disparges identity politics when practiced by others put identity at the top of anything else when talking about whites.
It would be funny if it weren't pathologic and sad
They are not materialist.... you guys with your "inequality!" are basing this "inequality!" on material parameters... the whole Picketty-Saez stuff is based on comparisons of material income/wealth...
"Labor!" is a materialist concept as it represents an occupation to make munnie for material provision...
They would say 'what good is labor if you are laboring in a nation without a unique identity...' 'labor', 'economics' are material matters of secondary concern to the non-material issue of 'identity'... this is what they all have grown up with... its 'identity politics' and they are well trained in it...
These millenials are not as materialistic as you boomers and GenXers.... you guys are ALL ABOUT material... that's all you guys are ever concerned about... material this and material that.... blah, blah, blah....
they dont care how much munnie these google/apple, etc Silicon Valley people, "banksters!".. have... they have no concern about any of that... they are not trying to tax "the rich!" and redistribute and compare themselves to others based on material terms....
Boomers and GenXers are materialistic and shallow.... these millennials are about identity and social networks.... material is secondary...
Greg,
"The group that disparges identity politics "
The alt-right specifically does NOT do that... they are ALL ABOUT 'identity'....
There are some in the GOP or on the old right that do that but these alt-right cant stand those boomers...
They disparage Fox News as 'adult diaper salesmen....'
these millennials have been TRAINED in identity politics... this is what they do....
and they are not saying they are "supreme!".... they are saying they are "white!".... this is their "identity'....
Bob said...
I'm all for noblesse oblige, Jacobin style.
Me, too!
MRW said...
Julius Evola?!? The papa of Nazism?
Straight from Milo's and Bokhari's mouth. But some credit Paul Gottfried, too:
The Alt-Right's Jewish Godfather
By Jacob Siegel
http://www.tabletmag.com/jewish-news-and-politics/218712/spencer-gottfried-alt-right
I imagine 1488rs must feel let down.
Greg said...
I love all of them, Greg.
Matt Franko said...
Boomers and GenXers are materialistic and shallow.... these millennials are about identity and social networks.... material is secondary...
I am totally materialistic and shallow. I've been like that since I was a kid, and I'm too old to change.
Which doesn't mean I can't change at all. I never had those urges (except for Brad DeLong, who, on top of being a bona fide genius, is hot) but If I were gay, I'd sing with Madonna "I'm a material girl".
Therefore, I'm left with Watto, from Star Wars Episode I: The Phantom Menace:
What? You think you're some kind of Jedi, waving your hands around like that? I'm a Toydarian, mind tricks don't work on me. Only money. No money, no parts, no deal.
noblesse oblige, n. The obligation of those of lower socio-economic classes to cater to the whims and fantasies of those above them.
Matt, I dont know which Gen-Yers you’re talking to—and I talk to a lot—but they care very much about money, or your dismissive and ridiculous “munnie.” You’re naive if you believe otherwise. For the girls, their makeup costs a fortune (for selfies) and for boys, do does their beer and gas (depending on the state they live in). Probably absorbed by their parents at the moment, out of self-understanding of their absorbed concerns. They’re a societal bomb waiting to go off.
And those are just the white versions.
The Black and Latino versions see it a lot differently.
Ignacio, apologies. And to Noah who made a very pertinent point.
Tom: "China realizes that the US push against Iran and Russia is to isolate and China in preparation to finish it off. Then the US is permanently the global hegemon and can remain so indefinitely by preventing any country from acquiring the means to challenge the US either economically or militarily."
Perfectly put, and many analysts see it this way. China and Russia will not only step up, they'll step up in a big way. The more Washington ratchets this up, the more Russia and China will step the fuck up. They will not back down, for the simple reason that they can't: an attack on Iran is a de facto attack on Russia and China, and everyone knows it. Trump will have to back down. The question is whether he has the character and temperament to do so, because he's probably never had to back down from anything in his life.
All may not be lost, though. Now that the First Prostitute has made a "loser" out of him, he may completely crack up and in the process become a sane individual completely averse to attacking Iran and making China and Russia unnecessarily nervous by playing war games that look more like war than games in their backyards.
MRW yes they know they need munnie and they want money ofc for means of subsistence/robust provision but they dont see the pursuit of munnie as their primary reason for living... they see their primary pursuit as communicating their identities via their social networks...
Munnie should just be there....
So they are like us in that regard they dont see munnie as the big deal... but they dont understand it (numismatic systems) technically like we do (not trained in that...) ... so we probably have good potential to communicate our knowledge to them as they dont have a "munnie is everything" bias about them...
they are not USD zombies... they have different priorities and munnie is not at the top of the list... yes it is on the list but not at the top...
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