I highly respect Jonathan Turley as a lawyer, but I think he may be too dismissive here. This is going to be debated for some time, even if it is not litigated.
Why am I not on board as a libertarian of the left? While I highly value a rights-based system over a rule by men and agree in principle with his argument, the context here is more complicated than he makes out. This incident was orchestrated over a period of time to the degree that it is genuinely perplexing as to why the security forces were not effective in preventing a breach of the US Capitol by a mob. Moreover, there is no let up in the instigation of insurrection yet.
Scarborough’s Siren’s Call: MSNBC Host Demands The Arrest Of Trump, Giuliani, and Trump Jr. For Insurrection
Jonathan Turley | Shapiro Professor of Public Interest Law at George Washington University
Scarborough’s Siren’s Call: MSNBC Host Demands The Arrest Of Trump, Giuliani, and Trump Jr. For Insurrection
Jonathan Turley | Shapiro Professor of Public Interest Law at George Washington University
See also
Insurrection
Gerard N. Magliocca | Samuel R. Rosen Professor at the Indiana University Robert H. McKinney School of Law
Attorney withdraws from election challenge lawsuit, saying Trump used him to 'perpetrate a crime'
Harper Neidig
Also
Axios
Business leaders weigh cutting off funds to Republicans involved in electoral objections
Dan Primack
UPDATE
I agree with Turley here. Intent is difficult to prove. This is why the banks were not prosecuted for mortgage fraud in the GFC according to the US AG.
Turley is also correct that law is often (mis)used as a social, political and/or economic weapon. Regrettable, but SOP.
Trump’s Midas Touch: Legal Experts Line Up To Declare The Georgia Call As The Latest Crime By Trump
Jonathan Turley | Shapiro Professor of Public Interest Law at George Washington University
58 comments:
Where are your critical thinking skills, Tom?
I watched some video of the incident... it was a protest/photo opportunity.
Not an insurrection.
Not a coup.
These people are your fellow citizens, yet the media is painting them as the enemy.
Curious double standard when it came to reporting on the protests/RIOTS last spring.
@Peter Pan
I actually have experience with the White House Police and Secret Service. You cross the line when the president is there, and you are liable to be shot unless you immediately surrender on request.
Yes, the Capitol is not the WH, but close. This was not a "protest" any longer when they breached the Capitol during a session of Congress. In fact, I am rather surprised that only one person was shot entering a restricted area.
There will be an investigation into dereliction of duty and some heads will fall.
This was arguably an attempted coup by the president, and whether his followers committed sedition by mounting an insurrection will be decided in court.
This was very very serious stuff, and it looks to me like a lot of people don't realize it. If this is not nipped in the bud, America as we knew it is over.
I said long ago that if you have much of a life in front of you and you live in the US, it would be prudent to have an escape plan in place.
Regarding the protests last spring, if you recall the SecDef and CJCS were on the ground talking about "securing the battle space."
The first head to roll.
Schumer says he will fire Senate sergeant-at-arms once Dems take control
Then you should know that this was theater, staged for the cameras.
Who benefits from this incident?
It ain't Trump. Trumpism will also take a hit.
A bloodbath was avoided, whether or not you believe this was an attempted coup. Those in charge of security should be commended for showing restraint.
Thank goodness the mainstream media aren't in charge, yet they are trying their best to incite hatred.
“ Why am I not on board as a libertarian of the left?”
Because you are a hypocrite too? Can’t make a decision?
Can’t make a decision?
It's not up to me to make legal decisions. That is for courts to do and they will. This is a defining moment legally, and I am not a lawyer, so I am jus' sayin' that here I think Turley is probably off-base, even though I usually agree with his legal analysis.
My observation is that Turley omits relevant facts in his argument, which I agree with in principle, but not in context as I presently understand the facts. I am in good company with since the other link by a law professor says that the issue appears to him to be unclear and it will be likely be decided in court, especially if Trump seeks office again, since sedition would disqualify him.
If one looks at what Trump has said it appears that he sought legal advice beforehand to avoid stepping over a line. He may have succeeded, and it will the court that decides if it comes to that.
He does seem to me to have blown himself up though, but he is very savvy politically to get where he has and I would not try to second guess him. This is a loooong way from over. As I have said, I expect at least a decade.
@ Peter Pan
You are naïve. This is a classic power struggle and it is a zero-sum game with one player the Establishment as the dealer in this casino.
It seems to me that Trump and Bannon bit off more than they could chew. Now the hard work begins for them to mount another shot at power. I doubt either is up to the task.
But there is a whole movement waiting to be picked up by someone who is better able to mount an attack on the fortresses of the Establishment that control the commanding heights and hold the reins of power and wealth. Napoleon did it, Lenin did it, Hitler did it, Mussolini did it, Mao did it, so it is not like it is impossible.
A reason why this was not a protest and staged as political theater.
The breach of the Capitol involved breaking windows, which probably sounds pretty easy.
Well, have you ever tried to break safety glass on a vehicle. Difficult without an implement.
The Capitol windows are made of bulletproof glass. Much much harder to break through, in fact, impossible unless one were prepared to do so and brought the requisite equipment.
How to Break Bulletproof Glass
Does the Capitol really have bulletproof glass?
Preparation to the Presidential Inauguration
Second head rolls.
US House's Sergeant-at-Arms Resigns in Light of Massive Capitol Security Breach
All the signs are pointing to a false flag, yet you're falling for it.
Trumpism has a future, and defenders of the status quo are preparing for it. In the meantime, they'll use this incident as an excuse to crack down on dissent. Shouldn't take long for the other shoe to drop.
Tom there was a failure of law enforcement and security forces all summer... yesterday no different.. just a different political constituency ... 100% predictable...
False equivalence, Matt. The WH and Capitol, national monuments, etc. are treated differently in law enforcement and the WH and Capitol even have their own separate security agencies. You may also have noticed that tactical units of the FBI were also called in.
The elite are very much aware that this is right out of the color revolution playbook that the US has employed so well for decades — mount at insurgency at the seat of power. This time it was being turned on them. Foreign governments have remarked on this.
Was this a coup, or even insurrection? I doubt that intent. The incident was managed to provide background for the GOP congresspeople to overturn the election results and install DJT for a second term.
Was this a coup, or even insurrection?
I should make what I think clearer.
I don't think that the protestors were thinking in terms of a coup or an insurrection. It was supposed to be be backup for the GOP congresspeople to overturn the election result and I think many at least got this. Why it got to point it did is not yet clear, and in hindsight they got in their own way.
But I do think that the president did view this as a coup or insurrection in the sense that he had exhausted other avenues and this was his last shot at holding onto power. It was a "soft coup" in this sense.
This was an end-run on his part. His rationale was not based on fact and they had been shown both in court and in the halls of state government.
I seriously doubt he intended for the protestors to breach the Capitol and stop the electoral process physically as they did. But there was only so much he could signal without getting involved in it, creating legal jeopardy, and matters got out of hand for reasons that remain unclear at this point.
The right is claiming that it was the work of leftist agent-provocateurs (Antifa) but that remains to be established.
The story is still unfolding.
To See Police Priorities, Contrast Capitol Mob With J20 and Black Lives Matter Protests, The Intercept by Natasha Lennard
Does Video Show Capitol Police Opening Gates for Rioters? Snopes
In sum, while it was true video footage showed police at the U.S. Capitol seemingly giving up on barricades designed to block trespassers from entering the federal building, the clip did not provide enough evidence to determine who exactly moved the iron barricades, extremists or police. Additionally, the video’s producer described the scene as rioters “pushing” past police, not as officers moving physical barricades.
DC Attorney Mike Sherwin Says Probe Into Capitol Breach Likely to Continue Through End of 2021
‘Some’ Rioters Will Face Charges Thursday Amid Probe Into Capitol Siege - Acting US Attorney General
there is no difference Tom...
https://nypost.com/2021/01/07/workers-install-7-foot-fence-around-capitol-after-siege/
incompetent crony/nepotism/diversity hires Monday morning quarterbacking as usual... that is not the A-Team down there...
Same thing as 9-11, guy goes in to get flight instructions sez he doesnt want to pay for take off and land so the people there call the authorities and crickets... whole thing could have easily been avoided if there were competent people there...
These people are good at reacting after the fact... these are the C and maybe a few B students...
Maybe even a few High School equivalency people...
Federal Prosecutor in DC Not Ruling Out Charging Trump Over Inciting Violence at US Capitol - Report
"It seems to me that Trump and Bannon bit off more than they could chew. Now the hard work begins for them to mount another shot at power. I doubt either is up to the task."
I think they are going to do an integrated media company.... maybe will have some sort of political tie in but maybe not... they will have an instant 74M audience... will have instant $25B market cap minimum... looks like the others are anticipating this and blocking them starting now... all the viewers have left Fox... up for grabs right now..
yeah Tom doing "25 amendment" stuff too... hopefully Trump is in there declassifying and storing everything he will need for his numerous civil lawsuits he will bring... I think he raised over 200M war chest post election...
Trump Extremists Emboldened by Lack of Crackdown
WhoWhatWhy by Shakti Langlois-Ortega
Lindsey Graham rails against security failure at Capitol: Rioters 'could have killed us all'
Democratic senator raises concerns about inauguration security - TheHill - The Hill News by Justine Coleman
Acting Pentagon Chief Miller Says Will Execute ‘Time-Honored’ Peaceful Transfer of Power to Biden Sputnik
Sundance thinking Trump could take all 74M plus...
https://theconservativetreehouse.com/2021/01/07/dan-scavino-relays-a-message-from-president-donald-trump/
idk....
Interesting reading some of the commentary on left and right.
The left is concerned about a Nazi takeover while the right is concerned about a socialist takeover. Almost the same plot with two different key terms.
what could be good is if it breaks into a 2 party "citizen" party and a "corporation" party...
Matt, the comments on that link read like comments at ZH. Maybe the same people?
It is irresponsible for the media to label this a coup or insurrection. The winners here are the Dem establishment, along with Biden/Harris.
A few republican senators were about to contest the certification of the electoral college, but after this incident, the certification was accomplished in a fraction of the time.
This is Juan Guaido level of incompetence.
"The left is concerned about a Nazi takeover while the right is concerned about a socialist takeover." I know LOL!!!!
Whats going to happen is the legacy right media (Fox,etc) is going to convert from MAGA programming over to full-time Biden Derangement Syndrome (BDS) programming... and the legacy left media is going to convert from "Trump Derangement Syndrome" programming over to full time globalist programming...
hard to tell what a TrumpMedia thing would do...
There is a lot of hard money/gold/bitcoin type stuff on the right medias... and the MyPillow... and Navage nasal flushing kit... and SoClean C-PAP cleaner...
also Genucel turkey-neck cream... they sell a lot of that stuff too...
It is irresponsible for the media to label this a coup or insurrection.
The US media haven't been responsible for a long time, at least since the Murdoch model took over the industry.
Before that it was polite propaganda.
"A few republican senators were about to contest the certification of the electoral college, "
Wouldnt have made a difference once Pence wouldnt at least delay it for a week or two.. they just go vote and Dems had the edge...
Had to be sent back to states for anti-fraud investigations at the state level...
Trump's endgame. Long shot that didn't work.
Can Congress Block Certification of Biden's Victory? by Patsy Widakuswara - VOA
Whatever, the Civil War continues. Never really ended.
Civil wars kill people, is that what the media wants?
Paul Craig Roberts weighs in, enjoy!
https://www.paulcraigroberts.org/2021/01/07/americas-color-revolution-2/
PCR went off the deep end some time ago.
Third head falls.
US Capitol Police Chief Resigns in Wake of Riots That Ransacked Legislature
https://creativedestructionmedia.com/analysis/2021/01/07/pelosi-schumer-and-the-swamp-are-worried-trump-will-release-the-truth/
They do seem quite panicked.,,,
Justice Department warns of national security fallout from Capitol Hill insurrection - Politico by Natasha Bertrand
They do seem quite panicked.,,,
Really?
From the link:
Democrat and Republican politicians who have their hands deep in the swamp cookie jar are nervous President Trump will release information, or even take action against the fraudulent election conspiracy in the waning days of his first term.
There is now a concerted push to remove the president from office, with only 13 days left in The White House.
The push to remove him via the 25th Amendment makes no sense, unless you are worried about the truth coming out regarding your crimes against the nation becoming public.
Pelosi and Schumer are definitely very worried. You can tell by the hyper nature of their shrill calls to remove the president from office.
This is pure conspiracy theory stuff.
Limbaugh dismisses calls to end violence after mob hits Capitol - The Hill by Dominick Mastrangelo
The Pro-Trump Activists Who Helped Plan The Insurrection Feel Betrayed By The President - BuzzFeed - Politics by Molly Hensley-Clancy
“The Storming of the Capitol”: America’s Reichstag Fire?
The four big lies underpinning this story show it was likely a staged event.
Kit Knightly
Off Guardian (UK) goes down the rabbit hole.
Only one down the rabbit hole is you, Tom.
Not that stuff Tom all the unredacted illegal surveillance stuff...fbi cia mueller, etc
He has lead pipe cinch 1B civil rights case against them and Biden and Obama...
I'll believe it when I see, although I would welcome it. I wonder why he hasn't surfaced it already if he has it in hand.
McConnell ousts Senate sergeant-at-arms after Capitol riots
He’s not going anywhere:
https://theconservativetreehouse.com/2021/01/07/a-message-from-president-donald-j-trump/
Michael Tracey weighs in, enjoy!
https://mtracey.medium.com/only-in-your-imagination-was-that-an-attempted-coup-8bb8cc9fb39b
“Curious double standard when it came to reporting on the protests/RIOTS last spring.“
It’s not a “double standard “ ... that implies judgement... he can’t make a judgement ... hypo-krites means under-judge... he’s a ‘hypocrite’ ... not dishonest or duplicitous
Don’t fall for the standard Christian based definition of ‘hypocrisy’ that implies the person is being dishonest or lying or bearing false freewill witness or something...
Tom is not judgmental this I’d how he is trained.,,, he starts with the Thesis FIRST then dogmatically defends it... textbook dialogic methodology 101... he’s not trained to make objective decisions those are the Scientific people... . he’s trained to engage in dialogue.. to do that you have to start with a thesis and some one else posits an antithesis and they go back and forth..
Matt, I was referring to the mainstream media.
hard to tell what a TrumpMedia thing would do.
No it’s not. They’ll simply scam their watchers out of their hard earned money like they always do
After Trump's Georgia phone call Saturday and his behavior Wednesday, the fact Trump hasn't already been impeached and convicted unanimously by the senate shows just how vile and craven the republicans are. How many crimes does the leader of the party of "law and order" have to commit before the party of "law and order" removes him?
Trump has a possible insanity defense. If he actually believes the conspiracies he invented, he *might* be able to avoid criminal liability for the federal and state laws broken during the gerogia call. In which case, he's detached from reality and unable to fulfill duties of office and the 25th should immediately be put to use.. Republicans, vile craven bastards.
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