The transitory view of the current inflation episode is getting more support from the evidence. Yesterday’s US inflation data from the Bureau of Labor Statistics (March 14, 2023) – Consumer Price Index Summary – February 2023 – shows a further significant drop in the inflation rate as some of the key supply-side drivers abate. All the data is pointing to the fact that the US Federal Reserve’s logic is deeply flawed and not fit for purpose. Today, I also discuss the stupidity that is about to begin in Europe again, as the European Commission starts to flex its muscles after it announced to the Member States that it is back to austerity by the end of this year. And finally, some beauty from Europe in the music segment....William Mitchell — Modern Monetary Theory
US inflation falling fast as Europe prepares to go back into a deliberate austerity-led crises
Bill Mitchell | Professor in Economics and Director of the Centre of Full Employment and Equity (CofFEE), at University of Newcastle, NSW, Australia
57 comments:
I listened to Dirk Ehnts speaking to the Scotonomics team below.
The growth and stability pact and 3% rule.
https://scotonomics.scot/podcast-player/
Him and Murphy are the most delusional people I know.
They are holding an event in Dundee called the festival of economics and not one person who is speaking over next weekend gets it.
https://scotonomics.scot/live-events/
Listening to Dirk he had won the debate and the rules were never coming back.
He has no idea what he is up against. A class room warrior. Yup, and not even after watching the EU actions in this war.
It should be called the EU uber alles festival next weekend in Dundee.
I'd go toe to toe with any of them. Beat them using their own GROUPTHINK.
Mike Whitney Interviews Paul Craig Roberts About the Rising Tensions with China
https://www.paulcraigroberts.org/2023/03/09/mike-whitney-interviews-paul-craig-roberts-about-the-rising-tensions-with-china/
PCR mentions MMT.
I’m assuming he’s not a fan….
"Thirdly, according to Modern Monetary Theory, the creation of money by governments to finance infrastructure projects that lead to greater productivity or reduce costs to business is non-inflationary. Instead it drops production costs and makes a country’s businesses more productive and more successful in international competition. Refurbishing US infrastructure is a goal we can easily accomplish ourselves."
MMT gets in the way of blaming China for America's problems.
Tom,
Bill says here: “ They were predicting on average a monthly payroll change of around 200,000 whereas the actual result was 311,000.”
He’s using numbers here, 200,000 and 311,000, why?
Plato says don’t use numbers use knowledge…
What is Bill doing?
Is Bill temporarily slumming on the other side of the academe?
The side that uses numbers instead of knowledge?
I’m confused…. 🤔
What side is Bill on?
"Thirdly, according to Modern Monetary Theory, the creation of money by governments to finance infrastructure projects that lead to greater productivity or reduce costs to business is non-inflationary. "
Where on earth did they get that from. That looks like a bastardisation of Laffer theory with an MMT iced coating.
Matt, the Plato quote is undocumented so I can't determine the context in which was said, so I don't know the meaning that was intended, if the quote actually appears in Plato's work. As far as I can tell it is an Internet quote that is widely repeated without giving a reference to Plato.
The Internet is notoriously bad at misquoting and making up bogus quotes for false authority. So I'll pass on this until the source is located. BTW, I spent some time searching and turned up nothing substantial. Maybe someone else can do better.
When citing Plato, a standard pagination system is used, it is call Stephanus numbers. (When citing Aristotle, there is another system called Bekker numbers). Stephanus numbers are pagination named after Henri Stephanus, a printer in the 16th century who published a famous edition of Plato's works.
Synchronistically, I was in a board meeting yesterday and one of the members, a mechanical engineer, an MBS (Master of Science in Management from RPI), and former CEO of several companies said that numbers themselves mean nothing out of context and the unless they were related to system as data they did not provide useful information to managers. He was cautioning the board about relying on numbers alone without fully understanding how they are embedded in the system under consideration as useful information.
Since I don't know Plato's intention without seeing the context, I don't know whether this was his intent but I was struck by the similarity. BTW, Plato was not mentioned and I did not bring it up, not being sure that the quote was genuine or if it is, what Plato may have meant by it.
I did get it off the internet…
What about this one from Hegel?
“If the facts disagree with the Theory then so much worse for the facts”
Bill is pointing out conflicting facts (measured employment numbers) but the monetarists are ignoring him… preferring to stick with their Theory…
Are not these people just doing what they have been trained/taught to do? ie have their theory remain paramount regardless of the facts?
Can these people be held responsible for just doing what they have been taught to do?
I don’t think so…
Holding people responsible for their actions is so passé.
What about this one from Hegel?
“If the facts disagree with the Theory then so much worse for the facts”
I checked that out some time ago when a friend posted it to FB. It is not found in the works of Hegel. While this quotation is widely attributed to Hegel on the Internet, it is "untraceable" to his works.
It is also attributed to Einstein without documentation. There is no evidence that Albert said or wrote this.
There are two distinct issues with quotes and especially Internet quotes but generally to all quotes that take on the authority of the person to whom the quote is attributed.
The first is whether the quote is genuine, which requires citing a source that can be checked.
The second issue is context. This is also widespread. Quotes taken out of context are often cited to give authority to meaning that they don't have on context or even which the context contradicts.
This is why documentation is considered fundamental to scholarship and to critical thinking in general.
All the best quotes are attributed to Oscar Wilde. But don't quote me on that.
“If the facts disagree with the Theory then so much worse for the facts” - US State Department
"If the facts disagree with the Theory then so much worse for the facts” - US State Department
Should read, "If the facts disagree with the narrative then so much worse for the facts” - US State Department. They don't regard the narrative as "theory," that is, hypothetical.
Even if those big wigs of the Art Degree methodology didn’t actually say those things it’s still being said over there that they did and it’s being taught that they did,,,
If not where did it come from? critics of it?
There are no critics of it… everyone thinks it’s this big great thing…
Do you think there is a secret global cabal of STEM students surreptitiously putting these statements out there with inappropriate attribution in a clandestine effort to discredit the Liberal Art side of the academe?
If the facts disagree with the narrative then so much worse for the facts - MSM
If you disagree with the narrative then you are a deplorable white supremacist antivax fascist - MSM
^ forgot to include pro-Putin
Those political matters aren’t objective measurable facts or data…
Those issues should probably use the Liberal Art methodology to try to figure out… ie Dialogic Method..,
People have subjective disagreement on the current Russia policy….
And your proof is It cuts across both parties… some Dems and some GOP disagree and some Dem and some GOP agree…
It’s not a simple matter…
I can see both sides of the Russia/Ukraine issue…
Which is fine but don’t try to say your political view is an objective fact..,
You just get to argue your anti Theses vs your adversary’s thesis on the matter…
That’s all…
Bill is point out objective facts the monetarists are saying they are trying to increase unemployment and the data is counter to the monetarist thesis prediction…
ie technical failure.,,
Dems are more pro-war against Russia. RINOs don't count as Reps.
Matt, these quotes under scrutiny are not isolated instances. The internet is full of bogus quotes of all kinds. The Internet is not a good source of information automatically. The BS factor is so high that everything needs to be checked.
Regarding my first point, I have no idea how and where all the bogus quotes arise. It seems to be a game on the Internet since the phenomenon is so prevalent. I carefully check the provenance of all quotes I find on the net. Much of the time, it is a raft of quotes with an undeterminable source. However, with major historical figures whose works are searchable, it is possible to determine that the quote doesn't appear in them and it is not recorded in authoritative reports of what they said. Einstein is a case in point. Whenever one sees a quote attributed to him it is pretty sure it is bogus.
This is not new either. nor is it limited to the Internet. Regarding the second issue, for example, partisan "biblical scholarship" is full of selective quoting out of context to "prove a point" that the context doesn't actually support. In addition, there is also the question of translations. Some translations stretch the original in ways that are doubtful regarding the author's intent, are anachronistic, are not supported by history of the period, and so forth. In many cases, there is ongoing controversy about the authenticity of various major works like Pauline epistles whose inclusion in the New Testament makes them canonical scripture.
Provenance comes first, then exegesis, that is, establishing the meaning of the text based on the author's likely intent, which was subjective and cannot be known other than by the author's direct testimony, which is often lacking. They there is the matter of interpretation of texts, since texts often support many interpretations. The is called hermeneutics.
Regarding Plato and Hegel, neither is currently very influential in Western culture and haven't been for a long time. Plato probably not since the Renaissance. Hegel was never particularly influential outside the German-speaking intelligentsia anyway and even there he was always greatly overshadowed by Kant, much to his chagrin. Moreover Plato stated almost nothing directly himself but rather the quotes attribute to him even correctly are taken from dialogues in which he puts words in the mouths of persona. Other than the Laws and the letters, they are not categorical works asserting Plato's own position.
As far as the basis for liberal education goes, it stems from the ancient Greeks regarding open inquiry. Liberal education arose in response to theological dogmatism and its influence on education. In this sense, liberal education is "dialogical" in the sense of Plato's dialogues as examples of open inquiry, but not "dialectical" in the Hegelian sense, which is actually somewhat different from Hegel's own method.
Arrest Vladimir Putin. - ICC
I believe quote mining is a course one can take at a community college or trade school.
Be yourself. Everyone else is taken. - Oscar Wilde
Whoever said it, it's a good one.
“ Regarding Plato and Hegel, neither is currently very influential in Western culture and haven't been for a long time.”
This is patently false…
https://education.nationalgeographic.org/resource/lasting-legacy-ancient-greek-leaders-and-philosophers/
“ Socrates was one of the most prominent ancient Greek philosophers. Socrates spent the majority of his life asking questions, always in search of the truth. He is responsible for developing what is known as the Socratic method, a technique still used by professors in law schools today. Instead of lecturing the students, professors will ask them a series of thought-provoking questions. These questions help the students think critically, and they are meant to elicit underlying presumptions and ideas that could be influencing the way a student views a case. Socrates engaged his students in this same fashion. He did not leave any written record of his life or ideas, so most of what we know about Socrates was written by one of his students, Plato.”
The whole liberal Art side of the academe today is designed in accordance with that of Plato’s academy..,
This is patently false…
Evidence please.
Relative number of citations in professional literature is considered a primary indication of influence, for example.
https://liberalarts.online/philosophy-the-seven-liberal-arts-and-the-roots-of-liberal-arts-education/
“ Liberal Arts (latin liberalis, free, and ars, art or principled practice) is not an ordinary university subject. It can make the claim to be the oldest curriculum of higher education in Western history. It goes back 2,500 years to Ancient Greece and at the time was the mark of an educated person. By late Antiquity it was divided into two parts: the trivium – grammar, rhetoric and dialectic – which carried the pursuit of virtue in the microcosm of personal and political life, and the quadrivium – astronomy, music, mathematics and geometry – which expressed the natural laws of the macrocosm. Together they embodied Western human enquiry into the first principles of the natural universe and into the lives needed to live true to them.”
It’s the whole basis of that degree..,
https://www.nationalgallery.org.uk/paintings/glossary/seven-liberal-arts
“ There were seven Liberal Arts which were the subjects of secular education in the Middle Ages and Renaissance but were codified in late Roman antiquity.
They were divided into the trivium - Grammar, Logic and Rhetoric - and the quadrivium - Geometry, Arithmetic, Astronomy and Music.”
Where is testing? Measurement? Adjustment? correction?
Judgement?
Here’s Bill’s thing in full context:
“ While there was a slight slowdown in employment growth, the result exceeded what the ‘market forecasters’ had predicted by more than 50 per cent.
They were predicting on average a monthly payroll change of around 200,000 whereas the actual result was 311,000.”
What is he doing here? Where is this covered in the 7 liberal arts? I don’t see it..
Logic maybe? There are numbers 50% , 200k, 311k… so that might be arithmetic..,
His interlocutors are trained to ignore this..
Or they are not trained to consider or test what he is saying..,
They are trained to employ those 7 arts..,
Do they have some sort of bastardized academic system down there in Australia?
Like half and half?
Not many academic institutions there to begin with..,
The whole liberal Art side of the academe today is designed in accordance with that of Plato’s academy..,
Very little is known about the operation of the Academy that can be substantiated by evidence, since Plato did not mention it in his works, and no one that participated in it described its organization and workings. What is surmised about it results from speculation rather than evidence or testimony. Here is an interesting article about it for anyone interested.
Regarding Socrates, there is no definitive agreement on the Socrates of history and the persona that appears on Plato's dialogues. See the entry on Socrates in the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy.
BTW, while controversial also, both Plato and Hegel are regarded as authoritarian. While I think this is somewhat of an exaggeration, they were not liberal or democratic in the contemporary Anglo-American sense and as a result have not been thought-leaders in the Anglo-American world. Many regard Plato as having promoted a dictatorship of the wise bred to their position, if one takes the Republic as representing his own view, and Hegel is regarded as an advocate for the Prussian state in which he lived.
Socratic method, a technique still used by professors in law schools today.
The question/answer method in modern education which probes the students' command of the subject is not derived from Socrates in any meaningful way, since the dialogues are demonstrations of Socrates showing people that their assertions are invalid logically. There is very little similarity in the two other than the use of questioning. The processes are different in orientation.
Actually, Aristotle, who had been Plato's student, formalized logic and reasoning, and developed the categorical method, founding his own school, the Lyceum, based on it. Aristotle's method of eduction was apparently different from Plato's, being based on lecture on categorical points rather than inquiry based on discussion. In doing so, Aristotle laid the foundation for Western thought and education more surely than Plato, who did not organize knowledge, at least publicly. Plato's contribution seems to have been more one of open inquiry and the application of reasoning. Aristotle, on the other hand, wrote extensively about just about the whole range of knowledge available at the time, setting the course of future thought that persists to this day.
This is the sound of Matt's liberal arts theory biting the dust...
His interlocutors are trained to ignore this..
Who are Bill's interlocutors?
Heterodox economist = heretic = ignore at all costs
Discrimination?
I don’t have a liberal Art theory I have a liberal Art hypothesis… “under thesis” or “less than thesis”..
The liberal Art people are the one who are trained to go right to thesis.., this is a big part of their problem..,
And you I believe are uneducated so you won’t understand any of this because you didn’t go thru either side of the academe…
You can’t understand what the process does to people who go thru it.., you could perhaps observe it but you won’t understand it,,
It establishes the cognitive processes in the graduates.,, which are permanent…
Tom it doesn’t matter if these people were real or not… I don’t know why you keep bringing this up… as if it disproves the deficiency in use of this academic practice in technical endeavors..,
All that matters is if the leadership of the academe believes they were real and is acting upon this belief..,
Is “Satan!” real?
It doesn’t matter, all that matters is that people in Christendom believe this personification is literal/real…
Is “money!” real?
It doesn’t matter, all that matters is that people in Economic leadership/administration believe this figure of speech is literal/real…
This is the sound of Matt's liberal arts hypothesis biting the dust...
And you I believe are uneducated so you won’t understand any of this because you didn’t go thru either side of the academe…
A Quebec High School Diploma is the equivalent of uneducated. Thank goodness for that.
I understand when people are being intellectually dishonest in order to collect a salary.
Academia is wonderful for teaching people which side of their bread is buttered.
Now contrast it with real life, where people have to accomplish actual stuff.
All that matters is if the leadership of the academe believes they were real and is acting upon this belief..,
Big "if." I have spent a lot of time — a lifetime really — in education and studying education, including the work of the leadership of academe. Education has a major interest of mine for over 50 years and I am still active in this field.
Matt, I do not recognize your views about what is happening in education in anything I have encountered. It appears to me to be fantasy constructed by in the mind of someone with an attitude out of his field of expertise who is unaware of the issues. This is not what educators are being guided by or what the thought-leaders of academe are proposing. Contemporary education is about getting observable results by better understanding the learning process and how to inculcate it in students in ways that are measurable. Teachers are also measured on how their students perform.
"Liberal education" means different things when applied in various periods of the history of Western civilization, where education was approached differently from other civilizations. The foundation was laid by the ancient Greeks in antiquity. Education declined in the Dark Ages. It became chiefly theological and dogmatic when revived in the Middle Ages. The Renaissance saw the revival of the Greek classics, leading to the Enlightenment or Age of Reason, in the Modern Age characterized by the addition of modern science as pillar of Western civilization along with Judaeo-Christian religion, ancient Greek thought, and Roman law and organization. This was the basis of "liberal education" until around 1960. The term "liberal education" is really a modern term that is no longer pursued the way it was in Modernity.
Since the advent of Postmodernity in the Sixties, the trend of education has been away from "liberal education" in the modern sense toward STEM education and an emphasis on the technical to fit students for a productive life in an increasingly technological society. Thus the emphasis of measurability of results, especially in the US where pragmatism rules and tradition takes a back seat to it.
This trend is increasing as the world passes from the Industrial Age to the Digital Age, a trend that is likely to have the enormous impact of the transition from the Agricultural Age to the Industrial Age.
But this is off-topic here and to go into it in sufficient details would take more time than I have to commit to it. It is very interesting and important subject and key to success in life not only economically and career-wise. It is also a key of national capability.
If you've spent 50 years studying education, then you must realize what an enormous financial scam it has become in the US. To a lesser extent in Canada.
This trend is increasing as the world passes from the Industrial Age to the Digital Age, a trend that is likely to have the enormous impact of the transition from the Agricultural Age to the Industrial Age
Yet the occupations that employ the most people don't require anything beyond a high school education. Factory jobs that afforded a middle class income for high school graduates (or lower) have gone the way of the dodo. What an unfortunate development in a dog-eat-dog world.
My dog ate my PhD.
That's tragic. Next applicant...
@PeterPan
If you've spent 50 years studying education, then you must realize what an enormous financial scam it has become in the US.
Absolutely.
Yet the occupations that employ the most people don't require anything beyond a high school education. Factory jobs that afforded a middle class income for high school graduates (or lower) have gone the way of the dodo.
Right again.
From the point of view of the national system, these are a part of the emergent challenges that are endemic and becoming entrenched.
Now the economic value of a college degree is coming into question whereas not long ago it was a no-brainer, as the numbers made clear. As a result, everyone was supposed to go to college. A college education also became proof of one's middle class credentials with the middle class broadening to include many blue collar workers as well, owing the emergence of the two-earner household and the increasing importance of trades in a service-dominant economy. Now with the increasing cost, including loss of the equivalent of 4 years of earning power while in school, it's becoming clear that economically it is no longer a good choice for a lot of people when the trades are paying much better relatively, for instance. Moreover, a college degree is no longer the cachet it once was.
In addition, as colleges and universities attempt to cut costs, the quality of education is also coming into question as a result of cutbacks. Increasing cost and decreasing quality means decreasing value.
In addition, now the era of the liberal arts whose purpose was to educate the free persons and responsible citizens necessary for a liberal democracy is effectively over, the question of curriculum design for the new digital era that is quickly emerging is also a pressing one in an environment in which employment opportunity and career advancement are dominant.
STEM is preferred in a digital age characterized by technology, but it is limited in that not all are qualified to pursue it. As result there is new class alignment in the works of "knowledge workers" who are well-paid and the rest. Also with automation, robotics and other digitization, the need for workers is decreasing. But, hey, productivity is increasing by substituting capital for labor, right? What's not to like?
Actually, it is a good thing in that it makes greater leisure available. The problem is social "hystersis" in the face of cultural change. Systems are resistant to social change because the entities that make them up are change-adverse. This includes the units and also subsystems. Path dependence is strong so the system is slow to adapt even though the pace of change is quickening. This is the emerging trend in thinking about redesigning education and even the forward thinkers are a perplexed on how to deal with it through iterative and incremental development, since it is hardly possible to just overhaul the system. But change will come of necessity.
A big problem is that the challenges are many in a system that is creaky with age and is no longer a good fit with contemporary conditions. Ideally, the education system would have adapted iteratively and incrementally but it did not, at least sufficiently anyway. Now it is becoming a big issue for reasons affecting individuals, communities, the nation, and national capability in international competition.
This is also a problem politically, since the purpose of a liberal education was to educate free persons as responsible citizens necessary for a liberal democracy, which depends on an informed electorate, which itself requires open inquiry and the ability to apply critical and creative thinking. This is what liberal education in the modern era was designed in large part to deliver. But this paradigm of education was displaced in the postmodern era for a variety of reasons, not the least of which was taking democracy for granted.
K-12 could do a better job of instilling civic responsibility and educating an informed electorate. Wasn't this the case prior to the 1980s or 1970s?
I can see why the ruling class would not want this. They prefer highly educated (and indebted) workers who can't think for themselves outside of their chosen field.
Other countries have saner policies. Germany encourages its students to pursue trades when they are unsuited for academic fields, and vice versa. Of course, the final decision is up to the student.
In retrospect, I attended an education system that kept students busy so their parents could work. A glorified daycare that pushed a curriculum set in stone.
@PeterPan
Right on all counts.
Tom, do you support the use of public funds to train the labour force for private employers?
Tom, do you support the use of public funds to train the labour force for private employers?
Obviously, public education is infrastructure investment that benefits the economy. That is one purpose of education and an important one that affects national capacity. So, of course it has to be a priority.
Economies are the life-support systems of societies and they depend on a capable workforce. However, economies do not exist independently of the systems in which they are embedded and cannot be treated as such without potentially affecting the system adversely. Integrating the economy with the ecology of the society and the planet is also a key priority. There are problems in governments that have been captured by class interests with the power to shape institutions, including education, to their interests.
Moreover, education should be one priority in a system that involves many factors.
For example, in a democracy, the concept of liberal education was adopted for two reasons, first to develop a free people, and secondly, to fit them for the responsibilities of citizenship. This is clearly a top priority in a democracy. This has become submerged to a degree in the quest to mass produce "human capital" for the economy. This I think is a big mistake. It overemphasizes economically oriented information and skill-set acquisition over creative and critical thinking, these being essential for innovation.
In my view, the primary purpose of education is self-actualization, which actually figures as the top level priority in Abraham Maslow's hierarchy of needs. Maslow was a prominent psychologist, credited as a founder of both humanistic and transpersonal psychology as alternatives to B. F. Skinner's behavioral psych based on a simple stimulus-response model as an extension of Pavlov. He also made important contributions to management science based on psychology.
The concept of self-actualization goes back to ancient Greece, where a primary concern was with how to live a good life as an individual in a good society. The basic idea was forming high quality individuals producing a high quality collective consciousness in society that is reflect in the society's culture and institutions.
The ideal of liberalism was developed in ancient Greece as freedom under law, which they held as a criterion distinguishing civilized people, e.g., people inhabiting Greek city-states, from the "barbarians" that surrounded them.
There are three aspects of freedom. The first is freedom from constraint. The second is freedom to choose as one sees fit. The third is freedom for developing one's potential as an individual, which is unique, and also as a human person, which is universal. This distinction underlies the Western concept of natural rights enshrined in law.
It appears to me that many Western societies have lost the plot here.
The 'free market' argument is that a private business has a responsibility to train its own workforce. Unlike general education, which is an important public service.
There is also the issue of private businesses (and government) poaching skilled labour from other countries.
With regard to skills training, accreditation, and whatnot, I get the impression we are treating businesses as pets (as Neil might say).
The 'free market' argument is that a private business has a responsibility to train its own workforce. Unlike general education, which is an important public service.
To the extent this applies to training specific to the job, it's obvious that this is the responsibility of employers.
General education, e.g., literacy and numeracy, is considered to be a public responsibility.
There is some grey area in between having to do with more specialized education. For example, businesses inform the government of current lacks and also the anticipation of future needs not yet being met by the educational system. It's not always clear what the public's responsibility is and what the responsibility of firms is.
There is also the issue of private businesses (and government) poaching skilled labour from other countries.
This is currently being addressed in the US by the increasing difficulty in getting a green card, which is essentially a work permit. This is the result of political pushback.
With regard to skills training, accreditation, and whatnot, I get the impression we are treating businesses as pets (as Neil might say).
The definition of capitalism based on the name involves favoring ownership over workers and the environment. Such a system is biased toward capital at the expense of land and labor.
To the extent this applies to training specific to the job, it's obvious that this is the responsibility of employers.
Colleges in Canada will typically offer courses that are defined by the NOC (National Occupational Classification). In most cases that is specific to a job, especially in smaller industries.
There is some grey area in between having to do with more specialized education. For example, businesses inform the government of current lacks and also the anticipation of future needs not yet being met by the educational system. It's not always clear what the public's responsibility is and what the responsibility of firms is.
In my experience, employers are always dissatisfied with general skills, like communication. This is a major gripe that colleges attempt to address. Responding to the needs of industry is referred to as teaching to 'industry standards'. It goes without saying that apprenticeships teach to industry standards, since most of its training occurs on the job.
My impression of the college classroom setting is one of imbalance. Students are expected to go into debt, devote time to learning a specialty, without any guarantee of employment. Compared to apprenticeships or co-op programs, what is the advantage of going this route?
In the meantime, what are employers doing apart from leveling complaints?
University degrees have better chances of landing employment, at the expense of more time and debt. Everyone in North America appears to accept this as normal. In other contexts, people wouldn't be as willing to take on such risks.
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