Sunday, June 16, 2013
Kevin Carson — The Third Industrial Revolution: Not As Easy to Co-opt as the Second
This and digital currencies pose a challenge for an authoritarian elite in the transition that is now taking place and where forces are aligning against each other. The revolution is on over whether centralized, hierarchal, authoritarian, competitive, and rigidly institutionalized organization will continue to control or be replaced by decentralized consensus, liberal, cooperative, and loose organization. Youth seems to be on the later side, and the difference is between left and right libertarianism. The question now is whether the level of collective conscious will support it.
Center for a Stateless Society — A Left Anarchist Think Tank & Media Center
The Third Industrial Revolution: Not As Easy to Co-opt as the Second.
Kevin Carson
(h/t Michel Bauwens at P2P Foundation Blog)
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16 comments:
Well, it looks like good ole fiat is going to have to compete with private monies for the payment of private debts but that is how IT SHOULD BE.
So now maybe we'll quit wasting fiat on the banks? And legitimize genuine private currencies so taxes can still be collected? So as to maintain the demand for fiat?
The fly in the ointment? You have to buy the private monies with fiat.
A fool and his fiat are soon parted.
F,
Where are you getting the "should"?
I think Tom has made this point with Bob R here before: There is nothing stopping anyone from using alternative "money" from our state currency right now... barter, gold whatever...
You just have to pay your taxes to the civil govt of the nation in the govt currency of issue...
What is the problem? I dont see a problem with this...
Again, you sound like one of those ancient Israelites depicted in the Greek scriptures always bitching about the dreaded "tax collectors" or something...
rsp,
There is nothing stopping anyone from using alternative "money" from our state currency right now... barter, gold whatever... M Franko
Don't pretend that I'm in favor of barter or for an idiot money form such as gold. That's called a "strawman."
Instead, I'm in favor of common stock, a money form that "shares" wealth and power instead of stealing them. And you, a supposed Christian, oppose that?
And that ideal, ethical money form is subject to the capital gains tax MEASURED IN FIAT. So any wasteful use of fiat sufficient to cause price inflation in it results in the illusion of a capital gain in common stock.
Again, you sound like one of those ancient Israelites depicted in the Greek scriptures always bitching about the dreaded "tax collectors" or something... Franko
Really? Then why, for instance, would I quote this Scripture?
Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God. Therefore whoever resists authority has opposed the ordinance of God; and they who have opposed will receive condemnation upon themselves. For rulers are not a cause of fear for good behavior, but for evil. Do you want to have no fear of authority? Do what is good and you will have praise from the same; for it is a minister of God to you for good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for it does not bear the sword for nothing; for it is a minister of God, an avenger who brings wrath on the one who practices evil. Therefore it is necessary to be in subjection, not only because of wrath, but also for conscience’ sake. For because of this you also pay taxes, for rulers are servants of God, devoting themselves to this very thing. Render to all what is due them: tax to whom tax is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honor to whom honor.
Owe nothing to anyone except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law. For this, “You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not covet,” and if there is any other commandment, it is summed up in this saying, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law. Romans 13:1-10 New American Standard Bible (NASB) [emphasis added]
Note that we are to "Owe nothing to anyone except to love one another; ..." YET you support a money system that drives people into debt! Some Christian neighbor you are, huh?
F,
Arent taxes a "debt" of sorts?
A 'liability', ie you often hear about a "tax liability", or a "tax debt", etc... Dont we "owe" taxes?
Paul (AGAIN) is negating the law of Moses here... he is saying that we should not feel obligated (by law) to "owe" anyone anything other than love, "agape", which was the devine form of the current English metonym "love".
I have no problems with paying reasonable taxes at rates that deliver a just economic outcome for all of us, or having to pay back a loan at low to zero interest...
In our current system of banking under a FFNC state currency system, we borrow from the government, not "anyone".
Banks are commissioned by the govt to collect taxes and are permitted to make loans on the govt's behalf.
The govt is NOT "anyone", it is our mutually formed and administered institution of authority... its a different thing all together than Paul's "anyone" here... now you may argue that there is corruption and stupidity today in govt and I couldnt argue with you...
Paul clearly reveals that we pay taxes not so "govt gets the money to be able to spend", we pay taxes to exhibit our subjection to the authority of our govt.
All libertarians generally have a hard time with this imo and this is where all the trouble starts....
"it is necessary to be subject, therefore you are paying taxes..."
Loans of the govt currency work the same way as taxes, the govt authority at this time simply wants the borrower to pay the balances back to the govt or the govts designated agents...
"Be paying, then, Caesar's to Caesar"
The govt spends/lends first, and then collects the taxes/payments... this is not hard if the govt people are operating the system correctly....
I see nothing wrong with this "as a rule", nor do I see how it conflicts with what Paul reveals here for the body of Christ...
Dont you want people to have a house or a car to drive to work?
This is how it is accomplished, govt either directly (in the case of homes up to $417k and student loans) or indirectly thru its designated agents (autos/trade inventories) advances balances of the state currency to borrowers that govt has ruled has to be paid back either to it's own account or the accounts of its agents... this is not unjust per se, although the specific terms can be (and like you say people can be deemed 'unworthy', etc...), and morons can infest the operations ("gotta dance while the music is playing", "we're out of money!", etc..)
"Ethical forms of money": "money" cannot be "ethical", people can be "ethical", laws do not work on their own, we need people to rotate thru positions of authority who are both just and non-morons to write and enforce the laws to deliver the best economic outcomes...
We cant "etch some rules in stone" and think we can then just put it on auto-pilot... that "epic fail" was demonstrated to us a long, long time ago... this process requires diligence by our best people...
rsp,
Dont you want people to have a house or a car to drive to work? Franko
Of course, I do. That's why I advocate a universal bailout of the entire population, including non-debtors, with new fiat, land reform, and the redistribution of the common stock of large corporations in addition to ethical money creation. That's what taking "Thou shalt steal" seriously logically leads to.
I've got no more time for you today.
Make that "Thou shall NOT steal."
F,
"12 Now tribute collectors also came to be baptized, and they said to him, "Teacher, what should we be doing?"
13 Now he said to them, "Impose nothing more than has been prescribed to you."
It's not that John here was directing these dreaded "tax collectors" to STOP requiring the tribute payments, which were made in a state currency (drachma, I believe to Herod), he was telling them to ADJUST the rates back to where they were lawfully authorized...
John is not imploring them to "create a new form of money" or "get rid of state currency (nomisma)" or something, to: "make ready the road of the Lord! Straight...be making the highways'" of Him!"
that part was fine... John wasnt saying "get rid of the highway" he just wanted them to "straighten it out" so to speak...
It's the RATES that matter, the taxes required by the operation of state currency systems, as these taxes result in our exhibiting our subjection to authority (exousia, read Paul's Romans 13), which ultimately comes from above, are fine as a rule...
From what I see, most if not all libertarians have a problem with this view... libertarians generally have a problem with authority (exousia), which btw they probably would admit this so FD ...
I see this going all the way back the line to the rebellious Cain...
rsp,
Where do you ever get that I'm against taxation?
Of course government is far too big and obtrusive but that's because Progressives thought the solution to a thieving money system was a welfare state to steal some back - not to give directly to the victims as would be somewhat just - but to provide them with "services" - as if the victims were at fault for being victims!
I see nothing wrong with this "as a rule", nor do I see how it conflicts with what Paul reveals here for the body of Christ.. Matt Franko
The Bible commands that the poor are to be charged NO interest* YET in the system you defend they are charged the highest interest, if they can get credit at all! Nonetheless, the poor suffer from the price inflation the credit system causes.
* Exodus 22:25
“If you lend money to My people, to the poor among you, you are not to act as a creditor to him; you shall not charge him interest."+
F,
A "money system" cannot be "thieving", people can be thieving...
"The Bible" says a lot of things...
Try to figure out what applies to you for today....
For me, I can assure you that I'm not an Israelite, and none of that OT legal stuff and Christ's earthly teaching applies to me, or anyone else in the body of Christ for that matter... I could never stone someone for being a sodomite or committing adultery, or other legal infraction I can assure you...
Here's the Lord: "23 Yet He answered her not a word. And, approaching, His disciples asked Him, saying, "Dismiss her, for she is crying behind us."
24 Now He, answering, said, "I was not commissioned except for the lost sheep of the house of Israel."
I can assure you that I am NOT a "lost sheep of the House of Israel"... I dont have anything to do with any of that....
If you think you are a member of the body of Christ, suggest read Paul's letter to the Galatians to obtain a correct view of the old discarded law of Moses...
Otherwise perhaps you are a devout Israelite which I greatly respect, but I'm still afraid I have to break the news to you that 'The Law' is no longer in effect...
rsp,
"There is nothing stopping anyone from using alternative "money" from our state currency right now... barter, gold whatever..."
Matt - FYI... "Prison May Be the Next Stop on a Gold Currency Journey" NYT 10/24/12
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/25/us/liberty-dollar-creator-awaits-his-fate-behind-bars.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0
Maybe stop trying to be a smartass and calling it dollars?
the problem with a lot of this people is that they are too "smart" for their own good. When they try to pullt out fiscal evasion schemes, laundering schemes and other crap.
Maybe if they actually got a real monetary system going they would go somewhere. There are plenty of 'legit' alternative systems out there around the world. But these are not the typical financial casino-type systems (bitcoin) or fiscal fraud systems. So they don't get so much coverage.
I'm tired of 'miracle sellers' regarding this issue or broken record types in the internet. Get to work and do something, no one is stopping you morons instead of constantly blaming everyone for their own dreams not becoming real. And if you want laws no to apply to you, get into politics and change these laws? Off course it will be difficult because a lot of these laws have an actual purpose, regardless of what your twisted mind think.
Ed, it seems that the issue with LIberty was not the money but the laundering. That's true of the official currency as well. Govts are not going to permit money laundering by bozos. Of course, the big banks is another story. They have a dispension to do as they please. Others, not so much.
but I'm still afraid I have to break the news to you that 'The Law' is no longer in effect...
Matt Franko
You're breaking no news to me. Unlike you (?), I've read the ENTIRE Bible (exception: I may have glossed construction details) and I assure you that God does not take kindly to oppression of the poor and will severely punish a nation for it. That remains in effect, you can be sure, at least as recently as WWII.
A "money system" cannot be "thieving", Matt Franko
To the contrary, purchasing power MUST be created ethically else it is thieving.
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