Is the battle for control of Europe beginning?
This is an interesting commentary on the Western assumption that traditional peoples exposed to liberalism will abandon tradition in favor of it.
I have said many times that the 21st century will be dominated by the conflict between liberalism and traditionalism, and this is just one instance of it. The significant role that "wokeness" played in the US general election is another, for example, as well as the conservative Christian GOP base that was motivated by traditions.
This is a major theme in this moment in the historical dialectic.
My own position is a balance between modernism and traditionalism. I believe with reasons that freedom of thought, expression and choice are fundamental to self-actualization. I also believe that at the core of traditions lies a kernel of wisdom in the teaching and example of those regard over time as wise. Ignoring either is deleterious to self-actualization.
Sorting this out ain't gonna be easy or pretty though, especially when religion and quasi-religious ideology and values are involved, which they are even in modernism (liberalism), which has now become a tradition in the West.
RT
Poll shows 57% of young Muslims in France believe Sharia law more important than national law
Austria closes mosque & religious association for ‘radicalization’ of presumed Vienna attacker
France bans the “Gray Wolves” organization
also
On the other hand. The Western tradition is very warlike and illiberal (feudalism, imperialism and colonialism), as well as having a history of theological dogmatism to which 18 century liberalism was a reaction.
Western Civilization?
22 comments:
First, as a Christian, I certainly believe that Christian value and actions are more important than national law. (Although Christians are enjoined to follow the civil authorities wherever possible).
Second, Sharia law, as I understand it, is far from a monolithic set of rules, and itself subject to wide and mostly moderate interpretation, practice.
They believe in the rule of law. Do you have a problem with that?
Anarchist theory would solve this conflict by allowing everyone to live in the society of their choice.
In North America, there are several groups that maintain their own way of life: Mormons, Menonites, Amish, Quackers.
But in Europe, I suppose the only acceptable response is cultural annihilation. Or as Tom prefers to describe it, "rehab".
Oooooh gosh. What a surprise. Islam continues doing what it's done for the last 1,500 years, in other words invading other countries and trying to reduce the culture and religion of those countries to second class states, or "Dhimmi" status to use the correct Muslim word.
Re Marian Ruccius's claim that there is variety within Islam, I dare say there was a variety of opinions within Hitler's Nazi party. According to Ruccius logic that makes Nazism OK, unless I've missed something.
I find the above "Poll shows 57%...." leads to my own blog. What's going on there???
Nazism a religion. News from Ralph.
@ Ralph
Ha ha. When I clicked it it led back here.
I fixed the link.
Just like in other religions, there are a range of view from radical to reactionary. In Islam, some in reactionary and even conservative cohorts regard radicals and even liberals as apostates or heretics (subject to capital punishment). The Inquisition is well-known in Christianity, and it was not limited to Spain. Then there were the crusades, and the justification of colonialism based on "saving" the heathens and unbelievers. Liberal interventionism is a direct descendent of the crusades. Fundamentalist Hindus are now active in India, not all Buddhist are non-violent (Burma), and male Sikhs are required to carry a dagger to fend the faith. I don't have to remind that Zionists are convinced based on their scripture that they have a right to conquer the surrounding lands that God gave them in perpetuity. This is hardly limited to Islam.
The radical aspect of Islam is Sufism, which is a mystical sect. Ibn 'Arabi, one of Sufism's chief proponents, was called "greatest master" (al shaykh al akbar) by some and a heretic by others. There are Sufi orders in Sunni and Shia Islam, as well versions that are universal. According to tradition, Sufism stems from the Prophet through his son-in-law Hazrat Ali. On the other hand, Saudi Arabia, custodian of the sacred sites, is Wahabi, which is probably the most reactionary form of Islam. SA prohibited Sufism until a few years agSA prohibited Sufism until a few years ago.
Traditionalism is not homogenous, including Islam.
don't have to remind that Zionists are convinced based on their scripture that they have a right to conquer the surrounding lands that God gave them in perpetuity. This is hardly limited to Islam. Tom Hickey
Except Israel's land grant from God is limited while the Muslims have no such limit and would conquer the entire world if they could.
That is your understanding, not that of the Zionists. Not all Jews are Zionists and not all Zionists are Jews either. Some are fundamentalist Christians, for instance.
The Worldview of Jewish Fundamentalism: The Breadth of Consensus
Christian Zionism
Ralph Musgrave: my point is not that there is immense variety in Islam, though that is true, but rather that most Sharia law is entirely consistent with national law, not racist or intolerant. There are aspects of certain important parts of Islamic law which can indeed be seen as a justification for invasion and domination of non-Islamic populations, but in recent centuries Christians and atheist westerners have each been far more prone to invasion and enslavement of other peoples and other religious belief systems. Which is to say that one cannot draw a direct line from religious beliefs to imperialist or nationalist acts of domination or invasion. It is important, surely, that the powerful and corrupt will seek to use WHATEVER beliefs are most dear to us to justify their thirst for power and deployment of force to steal what they want.
The biggest error has been in attacking Arab nationalists, and diminishing their power, as that has all but guaranteed the rise of Islamic fundamentalists in their wake, as the only groups, like Hamas and Hezbollah, with sufficient cohesion and confidence to be able to resist Western (and, say, Israeli) depredations and seizure of resources.
Hickey, show me where ANY form of Zionism justifies the conquest of the entire world?
Like I said, the Hebrew land grant is limited to the "Promised Land" which, even at its most generous, by no means extends beyond the Euphrates River.
Otho, the Muslims conquered a huge part of the world including Spain and parts of France and were only stopped by force (e.g. Charles "The Hammer" Martel).
show me where ANY form of Zionism justifies the conquest of the entire world?
Jewish world domination is a conspiracy theory that is unfortunately widespread and it is the basis for a lot of antisemitism.
The only "ism" that seek world domination presently is Western liberalism, and in particular American exceptionalism. The US has over 800 military installations, large and small, scattered across the globe. For defense? Really?
Hey dont you people know they tell you to never talk about religion and/or politics?
“ I dare say there was a variety of opinions within Hitler's Nazi party.”
I’d be pretty sure there was no disagreement on gold and Darwin in there....
Ralph,
Here's a video titled: "Hillary Clinton : We created Al Qaeda"
(The first few seconds of audio are muted)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XY-BWScpdZw
Where is the variety in Afghanistan or Iran
Afghanistan and Iran have variety in ethnicity. Just like Europe, but with less killing.
"Rivers burst out from the essence of (my) stones, and dived deep inside the earth of my secret treasuries. One tenth of divine knowledge I have disclosed, but what remained concealed are the other nine. My soul is (trying to contemplate alone by) seeking (to unite and realize) in her partner (that is the mind), while my mind is urging me (to explain what I have disclosed) to other confronting minds. I took refuge in the city of the Lord (the Spirit), (which is the body) that he built out of compound water and fire. The heights of its fences are beyond comparing, and I am shielded inside the castle behind the seven walls." —Ibn al-Arabi
Rule #1 of multiculturalism : economic inclusion.
Long term employment is the most effective means of integrating diverse cultures.
Economic disenfranchisement leads to ghettos and segregation.
Ralph
Saying there is a variety of opinions in the Nazi party is incomplete. Opinions about what is the only germane question here. Opinions about what is best to eat at breakfast aren’t as consequential as opinions about the fate of Jewish citizens. I imagine the variety of opinions around the second question, while not in lockstep, was more to the effect of “I prefer burning them to shooting them”. They all agreed that “Jewishness” was a problem but they did hold affinities for a variety of torture/execution methods
Greg they probably killed the Jews just to get the f-ing gold out of their teeth...
Great scene:
https://youtu.be/QzimS0sl2N8
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