Saturday, November 19, 2011

Newt speaks to OWS and the 99% for the 1%


24 comments:

Tom Hickey said...

You say there is a divide in this country?

Anonymous said...

Newt is speaking on behalf of more than 1% of the population. Perhaps 30% share this attitude??

Tom Hickey said...

The US has about 20-25% certifiable nut cases, and another 10-15% of borderline personality disorders, judging by the polls.

Anonymous said...

Go get a job? There is unemployment.There are no jobs for evereone.

dave said...

newt is scum, he should be ashamed of himself. he should be thrown out of this country, then we will see how long he would last

A.K.A. Damo Mackerel said...

I love the way people (Tom for instance) who disagree with others, likes to refer to them as mentally ill.

Disgraceful.

Tom Hickey said...

What I find particularly reprehensible about the right-wing talking point echoed by Newt that the protestors are dirty and behave like vermin is that it is right out of the Nazi propaganda playbook about the Jews. Soft fascism is turning into hard fascism before our eyes.

If OWS and the 99% movement has done thing else, it has brought to light the true colors of the "1%." I put the 1% in quotation marks, since obviously all wealthy people do not automatically fall into this category, and there are plenty of the 99% that do, which is what enables TPTB to stay in power.

Tom Hickey said...

@ dmc101

What is the definition of mental illness. Mental illness is defined wrt categories elaborated in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders
(DSM). One of the biggies is ability to distinguish reality and discern what is factual. Deficiency in this regard affects people on both side of the political spectrum, but it is particularly noticeable on the right, since the US has many more in that category than on the left.

On this topic, I am amazed at how pervasive conspiracy theories are in the US. There is a significant portion of the population that is definitely borderline mentally in the direction of being paranoid-delusional.

I don't think we spend enough time on this important subject, and we certainly do not devote enough resources to addressing mental illness an cognitive-affective imbalance. It's an issue regarding which most are in denial.

I often think that I am in a theater watching a play by an accomplished surrealist. Reality has become surreal, and 1984 has arrived in ways that Orwell himself did not envision.

BTW, I also don't buy into the notion that people are morally good or evil. I see it as everyone being somewhere along the spectrum of cognitive-affective-behavioral balance-imbalance, with the major psychological categories being tools for classification and assessment.

A.K.A. Damo Mackerel said...

Tom, I think you need to go and read shakespeare, to get a proper understanding of human nature.

And as for you not believing in
people being morally good or evil.. well you cannot have the law without morality.

In Ireland we have a problem with our politicians and senior civil servants who creamed off as much as they could (and continue to do so) but will tell you they've done nothing illegal. They're right, they haven't done anything illegal but their behaviour is immoral.

Tom Hickey said...

These are very sick people and need to be treated in an asylum for the criminally insane.

Matt Franko said...

"18 For God's indignation is being revealed from heaven on all the irreverence and injustice of men who are retaining the truth in injustice,.... because, knowing God, not as God do they glorify or thank Him, but vain were they made in their reasonings, and darkened is their unintelligent heart.
22 Alleging themselves to be wise, they are made stupid,..."

Romans 18, 21,22

Newt I believe it has been revealed has taken a lot of dinero from Fannie and Freddie I believe he has said to be retained as their "historian" or something.... ahhhh, gotta love that big government! He's a hypocrite in this regard, big time... if you are a MMT GOPer you gotta be looking at slightly out of paradigm Romney as the candidate. Resp,

Anonymous said...

Hypocrite yes, but not mentally ill. The conservative moral argument underlying this attitude is personal responsibility. It is not compatible with leftist ideals. One way or the other it will have to be confronted.

A.K.A. Damo Mackerel said...

Tom, do you not see where you're arguement falls down?

On the one hand you criticise Newt for calling people vermin and rightly so (you are right I mean). But on the other hand, those who disagree with you are mentally ill.

Do you know anybody suffering from a mental illness? I do, and to have them slagged off like the way you do is disgraceful.

Tom Hickey said...

It's those who disagree with me who are mentally ill. In this case, it's those who can't seem to distinguish between fact and fiction.

Tom Hickey said...

Let me explain my position on morality a bit more in detail.

There is a saying that only God knows the hearts of men. Jesus also said, "Judge not, or you will also be judged [the same standard].

Whether one is religious or not, it should be clear that human beings are incapable of knowing the true intentions of others. Moreover, anthropology and sociology reveal that moral standards are culturally determined. There are no absolute criteria in a relative world, or at least any capable of proof.

Moreover, we know from psychology that all humans are predisposed to certain cognitive-affective-behavioral imbalances, and the degree of balance is never perfect in anyone, or at least very few. Aberration is defined in terms of the norm, on one hand, and also in terms of ability to adapt. Those that are subnormal or prove themselves unable to adapt are classified broadly as neurotic or psychotic. Neurosis is socially acceptable as long as one can cope. Psychosis is not, because one of the criteria of psychosis in inability to adapt to norms sufficiently for acceptable social interaction.

Individuals are assessed psychologically on the basis of cognitive-affective-behavioral characteristics, and societies in the same way. When the bar in a society is low, the entire society can be neurotic, or even psychotic, and can display such behavior institutionally. One category within psychosis is criminal insanity. Even entire societies can manifest criminally insane behavior through its institution, especially the security forces and military.

Notice that the police official explains the use of pepper spray, outlawed in war by article 1.5 of the Chemical Weapons Convention, as "standard procedure." But it is OK for use on citizens domestically. This is psychotic and I would say, criminally insane. It is the Nuremberg defense.

Psychologists are not in charge of the society, however. Modern societies are under the rule of law.

Law is a different matter. Custom and positive law are culturally based. They reflect the "health" or deviance of a group institutionally. Therefore, things that are legal can also be neurotic, psychotic, or even criminally insane. That is why there is international law and a world court, for instance.

Anonymous said...

Newt handed out a prescription, take it or leave it. He might have added that if you can't find a job, then your next option is to live on other people's charity, so long as those donations were made voluntarily.

Tom Hickey said...

Laura, I would call such a society as people like Newt are calling for a sick society, and the people calling for it believe themselves to be in position of never having actually live their own norms, let along ideals.

Rachel Maddow has documented how Newt has scammed millions from the rubes.

When such people talk about things like "personal responsibility" they are mouthing talking points that cannot be reasonably substantiated. They talk as though the frontier days are still with us and they are homesteaders, not in terms of the realities of contemporary society. It is delusional. That's sick.

Tom Hickey said...

"Do you know anybody suffering from a mental illness? I do, and to have them slagged off like the way you do is disgraceful."

I don't believe that I have been disrespectful. I think I have spoken rather clinically. People with mental imbalances should be treated for this, not judged on moral standards that disregard psychological discoveries. Above all, people that are highly neurotic (borderline), psychotic or criminally insane should not be in positions of power. A well-functioning society would isolate them from such positions instead of letting them run things into the ground. Such as society is institutionally sick.

Matt Franko said...

Right Tom,

"isolate them" We could exile them... think GITMO with "3 hots and a cot" imo, just as long as we get them away from us here. I'm of course not a mental health professional, but from what I've read this looks like some form of psychopathic behavior...

"I would call such a society as people like Newt are calling for a sick society, and the people calling for it believe themselves to be in position of never having actually live their own norms, let along ideals."

Tom I couldn't agree more, it is indeed sick. Spent a part of the weekend helping to clean up a soup kitchen around where I am with a youth group. And all the while I am thinking to myself, only the human could figure out a way to screw up how to distribute the earth's bounty that God ultimately provides... like we are witnessing today. We have everything we need out there and instead of enlightened authority/leadership that makes it their job #1 to figure out how to get this bounty out to everybody, no, they are instead figuring out ways to isolate segments of society to separate them from their means of subsistence... SICK!!!

Resp,

Tom Hickey said...

While I am a libertarian in that I am anti-authoritarian and strongly believe in checks and balances, I regard extreme libertarianism, both of the left (anarchism) and right (individualism) as sociopathic, just as I regard extreme authoritarianism of the left (totalitarianism) and right (fascism) also as sociopathic.

Matt Franko said...

Ok then Tom, I guess forget the GITMO idea and just send them into the exile of obscurity... to think about it that may actually be worse for them, at least for Newtie here it probably would be.

Resp,

Anonymous said...

The welfare state is being dismantled, soon it will be too late. What you describe as sick will become the new norm. For some people, it already is. Newt and other conservatives know how to speak to their constituency.

Anonymous said...

You never diagnosed WWS as being mentally ill, doctor!

Tom Hickey said...

I don't pretend to be a mental health professional. I lived with a psychiatrist for a while and picked up on how he viewed the world. Made sense to me. Drove his wife crazy though.