Tuesday, July 31, 2018

Master race? Antisemitism & Jewish identity politics with Tony Greenstein & Gilad Atzmon

Why spend the afternoon watching the latest Hollywood blockbuster when you could be listening to something as interesting as this?

Don't get put off by the title, it's a very fair and balanced debate. All are anti-Zionist and pro Jeremy Corbyn. 

Master race? Jewish/Israeli identity politics and antisemitism with Gilad Atzmon, Tony Greenstein, Ed Hill and Eddie James What's the difference between Jews, Jewishness and Judaism? Is Gilad Atzmon an antisemite?
Is Israel about the Jewish race or Jewish religion, both, or neither?
Margaret Hodge's accusation that Jeremy Corbyn is a racist and an antisemite. IHRA definition is over 500 words. Are most antisemites Zionists?
There is no evidence Jeremy Corbyn is prejudiced against Jews or any race. Free speech and the suspension of Ken Livingstone, political interference in UK by Israel? What is the role of MI5?
In the old days antisemites were the people who hated the Jews, now antisemites are the people the Jews hate.
Political correctness insists that the words 'Jew', 'Jewish' or 'Jews' must have special protection despite the fact that the 'Jewish state' is embarking on racist laws and genocide against the Palestinians. Chief rabbi wrote a strong letter to the Labour party telling them to adopt the IHRA definition of antisemitism at the same time as Israel is embarking on an extremist racist project.
Do Jews have a disproportionate control of the media? Is making such an accusation like something from the Nazi propaganda ministry or is it a legitimate question?
Are some supporters of Palestine actually working in the interests of the Israeli state? Do Jews operate power or is the Israel lobby really just driven by Western imperialism?
Is Israel actually Jewish at all, or is the entire state project a fraud? Is Israel a settler colonial state, or an entirely new kind of racist state?
Is there a case for Jewish 'race' being innocent? What is Jewishness and what's the phenomenon's relation to 'chosenness'.
Who expelled Tony Greenstein from the Labour party? Who runs which Jewish pressure groups? Is the core of the problem identifying 'politically' as a Jew?
The right of the Labour party welcome's Tony's expulsion because they see Israel as the watchdog of Western colonial interests in the Middle East.
Jewish exceptionalism has many faces, identifying politically as a Jew. Operating in racially oriented bodies, they think in racial terms and they accuse everybody else of being racist.
Zionists claim that all Jews support Israel so Jews have to get together to oppose this lie. Racial vs. political orientated?
Should Israel, as a racist state, have the right to exist?
Ed Hill, Bristol Palestine Solidarity Campaign; Eddie Clarke, ARC bar on Broad Street, Bristol; Gilad Atzmon, Israeli-born writer and musician; Tony Greenstein, expelled from Brighton Labour party over antisemitism arguments.
Presenter and producer Tony Gosling, Engineered by David Bosankoe on the evening of Wednesday 18th July 2018 as the Knesset was passing the potentially genocidal Jewish Nation State Bill and on the day veteran Jewish Labour MP Margaret Hodge allegedly called her leader Jeremy Corbyn a '****ing racist and antisemite'. Labour expels Jewish anti-Zionist Tony Greenstein


Tom Hickey said...

The facts in Palestine speak for themselves. Some wealthy Jewish people of my acquaintance stopped donating to Israel until the Palestinian issue is resolved, fairly for the Palestinian people. That was decades ago and they are still waiting. This is a actually a very controversial position to take in their community, but many of them choose to stand on principle in spite of it.

Now the situation is becoming an abomination.

The larger issue involves the Islamic "radicals" that the West and Israel considered "terrorists." This from the point of view of Western interests. If certain details were different, they would be applauded as "freedom fighters," and indeed they are when they support Western and Israeli interests in the ME.

Ironically, these "freedom fighters" are opposing governments led by secular leaders — Saddam, Gaddafi, and Asad — and democratic Iran. These "freedom fighters" and are supported by monarchical or dictatorial governments bcked financially and militarily by the West for serving Western interests.

Snake pit.

Tom Hickey said...

Q. What's the difference between Jews, Jewishness and Judaism?
A. I see no difference.

Jewish joke.

Q. "What does it mean to be Jewish?”

A. “Ask two Jews a question and you’ll get three opinions”

In my experience, this joke sums it up.

It corresponds Wittgenstein's analysis of many concepts in ordinary language. There is no common set to which the members belong but rather a constellation of sets whose common characteristic is comparable to family resemblance, as in "so and so has the family …." (insert one or a few of many characteristics associated with the family).

I don't find anything but a loose family resemblance but it is a family in the sense of being purportedly genetic, although that is now being challenged based on DNA analysis.

Anyway, I prefer to focus on specifics that are relevant to the issues under consideration, e..g, Zionism.

All it takes to disconfirm the claim that all Jews are Zionists is one who is not. But the interesting question is the proportion of the Jewish population, which means defining that population operationally and then conducting studies to determine its makeup.

Anything else is opinion. based on what, exactly?

Kaivey said...

I put this out on MNE's before, Konrad, so I don't think I should put it out again, but I think you will find it interesting. It's about the native Americans who lost their when the Europeans stole it. it's not too long

EVERYONE MUST KNOW THIS before it is deleted, Why is the US government always hiding it


Konrad said...

This is off-topic, but I thought it amusing.

The #WalkAway Movement refers to the exploding number of people who are leaving the Democratic Party because of the Russia-gate hoax.

The response of Democrats and the corporate media outlets is of course more of the hoax. If you are tired of Democrats and their toadies calling everyone a “Russian agent, then you too are a “Russian agent.”

New York City hairstylist Brandon Straka started the movement in late May. A Facebook group called #WalkAway has 100,000 members, and the number keeps expanding. #WalkAway is also a high-ranking Twitter trend. There is also a growing number of YouTube videos in which people explain why they are #Walking Away.

All #WalkAway participants are “Russian agents” and “Russian bots.” Anyone who fails to vote for establishment Democrats in November will be voting for Russia.

This idiocy is causing Americans to #WalkAway faster and faster.

The #WalkAway Movement is about the Russia-gate hoax, and the entire Democrat hoax.

That is, people are #WalkingAway from establishment Democrat lies, corruption, and neoliberalism.

Konrad said...

“I prefer to focus on specifics that are relevant to the issues under consideration, e.g, Zionism.” ~ Tom Hickey

Cool. So, if anyone asks for your opinion about Israeli evil, you can dismiss the question by claiming that, “I prefer to focus on Zionism.”

What is your definition of Zionism? Can you give a clear answer?

My definition is Jewish supremacism. I see the “holocaust”™ myth, for example, as a manifestation of Jewish supremacism, i.e. Zionism.

Tom Hickey said...

What is your definition of Zionism? Can you give a clear answer?

Like the joke above, there are many views on this. I prefer to look at the historical record.

A good case can be made that Zionism is based on Jewish exceptionalism, similar to the way that American exceptionalism is based on Christian fundamentalism of one sort or another, Protestant and Catholic, and Russian exceptionalism is based on Russian Orthodox Christianity, and Nazism and white exceptionalism (Nazism, neo-Nazism and other forms of white supremacy) are based on either Aryan mythology or white dominance for the last 500 years.

Exceptionalism is any sort is poison. Virtually all nations, especially those having a genetic identity, fall victim to it, likely because kinship affiliation is an evolutionary trait.

However, this formerly positive trait has outlived its usefulness for the most part, and many Jews, Western Christians, Russia Orthodox Christians, and white folks, too, know that and reject exceptionalism, whether national, ethic or racial, realizing that everyone is special.

Laurent Guyénot presents a historical case for Zionism as Jewish exceptionalism.

How Biblical is Zionism?

Are all Jews Jewish exceptionalists, or even all Israeli Jews? What would constitute evidence for this?

The claim sounds to me like mind reading.

And there are many other sorts of exceptionalism, too. Class structure is based to a large degree on it, as evidenced by the terms "little people" and "hoi polloi." Hoi polloi is a Greek term meaning "the people." As an English import, it generally means the masses or "the rabble." Compare HRC's "the deplorables" and Obama's "guns, God and gays."

Tom Hickey said...

Calvinists believe that they are God's elect. Virtually all fundamentalist Christian believed that they are saved and only them. Some Muslim sects do have similar beliefs.

These are religious beliefs.

Judaism is a religion.

Jewishness is an ethnicity.

Converts to Judaism are Jewish by religion but not by ethnicity. For example, Ivanka Trump is a convert but that doesn't make her Jewish. Judaism is matrilineal so her children are not Jewish by ethnicity regardless of which religion they may choose to identify with. In fact, a good number of people are likely Jewish by ethnicity but don't realize it.

Not all Jews are religious, some are secular, and there are various categories of religious Jews, from ultra-orthodox to liberal.

In such cases all generalizations about a population, e.g., ethnic Jews, is wrong.

Konrad said...

Generalizations take many forms, e.g. your claim that “Judaism is matrilineal.” Karaite Jews, for example, are patrilineal, whereas Reform Jews say you are a Jew if either one of your parents is a Jew.

“Converts to Judaism are Jewish by religion but not by ethnicity. For example, Ivanka Trump is a convert but that doesn't make her Jewish.”

I take it you mean she is not ethnically Jewish.

“Not all Jews are religious, some are secular, and there are various categories of religious Jews, from ultra-orthodox to liberal.”

This depends on your definition of "religious." As I see it, almost all Jews are fanatically religious, and their religion is the “holocaust.”™

GLH said...

I agree with almost everything said by Tom Hickey and Konrad. The one area I have to side with Konrad on is the idea that
“Many Jews, Western Christians, Russia Orthodox Christians, and white folks, too, know that and reject exceptionalism, whether national, ethnic or racial, realizing that everyone is special.”
I used to be a Baptist and I know that they consider themselves exceptional and that they are the only religion that is going to heaven. The Jews, the Catholics, the anything else are all going to hell. The Baptist may be nice to your face but they know you are going to hell if you are not one of them.
By the way, what is the difference between a Baptist and a Lutheran, a Lutheran will speak to you in the liquor store .