Monday, April 12, 2021

Deontological Rivalry Pits East Against West — Stephen Karganovic

I have been noticing that Russians view this a religious war, with "God-less liberalism" pitted against Orthodox Russia. They see this as the liberal world mounting an analogue to a crusade to impose its "post-human" ideology with religious fervor. And they see the liberal West as a decadent civilization, not only a declining one, effete and animalistic. Russians are hardly along in this, and this view is shared by many conservative Americans, too, as I glean from my reading.

What is in progress is a clash between people and nations who support normal [traditonal] human values and the part of the Western elite which preaches [liberal] post-human values.

This is a critical moment in the historical dialectic or the clash between traditionalism and liberalism, not that either are monolithic phenomena.

Strategic Culture Foundation
Deontological Rivalry Pits East Against West
Stephen Karganovic

See also

Sputnik International
Lavrov: US Unwilling to Abandon ‘Flawed Course’ Toward Global Dominance

37 comments:

Matt Franko said...

Biden owes Ukraine a solid for all the payola thru Hunter...

lastgreek said...

I read it as “dental” and was expecting an article on some Russian breakthrough in dentistry. Boy was I off

Peter Pan said...

Orthodox Russia lost the plot to Stalin. Where were their values?

S400 said...

”Biden owes Ukraine a solid for all the payola thru Hunter...”

That’s easily solved. Once Ukrainian counterparts have done their part you abandon them. That’s been done all over the world. There are no rules among criminals.

S400 said...

”Biden owes Ukraine a solid for all the payola thru Hunter...”

That’s easily solved. Once Ukrainian counterparts have done their part you abandon them. That’s been done all over the world. There are no rules among criminals.

Nebris said...

Since when is Western Liberalism 'post-human'? Don't think these folks understand the meaning of the term.

Matt Franko said...

“ Once Ukrainian counterparts have done their part you abandon them.”

Let’s hope...

Matt Franko said...

Tom, It’s not “post human” it’s transhuman”

https://www.mediamatters.org/steve-bannon/steve-bannons-latest-crackpot-theory-globalists-want-eradicate-religion-biotechnology

“ elites in the tech industry are attempting to control the human race and eradicate religious practices through advanced gene editing, robotics, and forced microscopic implants.”

Russians are all conspiracy theorists... they are all over this kind of stuff...

Tom Hickey said...

In that view, in its more extreme versions, if one is a traditionalist, aka "conservative," and "fundamentalist," then liberalism is the enemy of all that is good and holy, and those who espouse its excesses are depraved and decadent. They are so depraved as to question whether the term human" actually applies to them. They are viewed a cross between animal and demon, and agents of the devil.

Of course, traditionalism and liberalism are nuanced, and there is a range between the extremes. But it tends to be the extremes that face off against each other, leaving no room for compromise.

Matt Franko said...

Well after all those decades of religious repression in the Soviet Union and now Russia finally gets some religious freedom and now these left wing neoDarwin atheists are trying to kill all that...

Yeah I’d probably be pissed off too...

Matt Franko said...

“ agents of the devil.”

Don’t get all caught up in the figurative there ... that whole “devil” thing is a personification... what does it represent literally?

Matt Franko said...

https://www.beliefnet.com/faiths/christianity/is-satan-in-the-old-testament.aspx

It’s just a figurative personification of your Interlocutor in a dialogic methodology ....nothing all spooky to get all afraid of.... we are well familiar with this method...

Tom Hickey said...

The extreme of liberalism, on the other hand, regards the other as sub=human. It's why Jefferson felt no contradiction in writing "all men are created equal" as a slaveholder. Extreme liberals regard the other as primitive, barbaric, savage, etc., fit only to be civilized that is dominated and and if submission is resisted, to be killed, incarcerated, or left to die.

Pretty much everyone falls either on these extremes are along the range between them.

This is a dominant moment in the historical dialectic now and it is prudent to understand it and watch it unfolding in the direction of the integration of the extremes.

This can be mapped on a matrix similar to the political compass. This matrix would be authoritarianism on the top half and anarchism on the bottom half, and traditionalism on the right half and liberalism on the left half.

The quadrants then would be authoritarian traditionalist in the upper right quadrant and libertarian of the right on the bottom right quadrant. The upper left quadrant would be the authoritarian liberals and the libertarians of the left on the bottom left quadrant.

Of course, the phenomenon is more nuanced than this, but it is a more developed way to view it than a merely binary. A simple dichotomy has uses, but they are limited by the complexity. Since this a historical dynamic unfolding in time within world system as a complex adaptive system, reflexivity and emergence are also operative, increasing the level of nuance.

In other words, the categorization can and should be developed further to describe the range of options. Since history is dynamic, some people would also shift position on the range, and new categories would emerge.

Of course, one of the most important factors in this dynamic is the categories those who are making the big decisions fall into. Now it is pretty much the authoritarian liberals and authoritarian traditionalists facing off.

The other factor to consider is the level of rigidity of position. Some are highly rigid, meaning practically they are unable to compromise on principle, so their behavior is predictable (zero-sum). Some are more flexible and can "work things out" rationally to optimize the interests of the parties (win-win).

That is essentially the dynamic as I have come to see it.

Calgacus said...

It's why Jefferson felt no contradiction in writing "all men are created equal" as a slaveholder.

That's not correct. For what it's worth, he felt the contradiction deeply. (1776) The Deleted Passage of the Declaration of Independence is from an earlier version of the Declaration. And he later more famously said he trembled for his country when he reflected that God is just.

See this for long relevant quotes.

Tom Hickey said...

for its worth

Not much. There is a saying, don't look at what people say, look at what they do for what they are. People are judged by their deeds, not their works, especially when their deeds contradict their words.

Did Jefferson really hold these sentiments? Only he and God know. I discount them heavily as crocodile tears for the following reasons.

There is little in Jefferson's behavior to indicate that he acted on these sentiments. It's as good as his not having said this. He was under no compunctions but financial, and that apparently was Jefferson true "morality." OK, he was caught in an evil system, but a true hero would have stood up instead of going along to get along and bewailing his being "forced" to do it.

Or he was person of very weak character and should be noted as such in the history books.

Why is there still a memorial to him other than what he wrote, which was hypocritical and he apparently knew it. Jefferson was hardly the only one. And it goes back to the early colonization by Britain and the incorporation of slavery in it.

Why do we canonize and then venerate such people when they are guilty of genocide of the indigenous peoples and slavers. These are two of the worst crimes against humanity, as it not lost on China now as it punches back. The Global East and South are listening, especially since only the trapping have changed with the means softening but the effect being pretty much the same. And when someone objects effectively or worse rises up, heaven help them. This is even domestically.

Whether Jefferson himself believe what he said we cannot know. But what we can and do know is that a whole lot of people mouth the word and find no problem in it since those that are oppressed appear to them to be subhuman.

This was also true of the Nazis, who saw nothing wrong with exterminating "non-Aryans." They planned to take over Russia for Lebensraum and enslave the sub-human Slavic population. BTW, the Nazis exterminated a lot of Slavs in addition to Jews as sub-human.

The West is still infected with this affliction in its dealing with "people of color." It’s the same kind of supremacy as the Nazis.

Tom Hickey said...

Should be "People are judged by their deeds, not their words, especially when their deeds contradict their words."

Talk is cheap. Action is not.

Tom Hickey said...

BTW, now that Russia and China have taken the diplomatic gloves off, the world is going to be hearing a lot about this history of the US and UK right up to the present day around the world. Looks like it's gonna get ugly.

Tom Hickey said...

I don't want to give the impression that I think Jefferson was all bad. He was a "great man" in the historical sense and had many good qualities too along with the not-so-good. But he failed morally in a big way, not once or twice but over a lifetime. That needs to be acknowledged.

Ahmed Fares said...

Tom,

As regards slavery, there were other considerations.

In 1779, as a practical solution, Jefferson supported gradual emancipation, training, and colonization of African-American slaves rather than immediate manumission, believing that releasing unprepared persons with no place to go and no means to support themselves would only bring them misfortune. —Wikipedia

lastgreek said...

Yes, Tom. But given the choice between living in the US, Russia or China.... the US in a heartbeat.

No accident that the US easily attracts the best talent in the world. For instance, the woman American scientist behind the mRNA technology was born in Hungary. The current CEO of Pfizer who was born, raised and educated in Greece, who worked all over Europe, on learning that he was named CEO his exact words were “Only in America!”

All I am saying is you’re not the abominable Ottoman Empire. Now there was piece of shit of an entity, like Nazi Germany, if there ever was one.

Tom Hickey said...

@ Ahmed

History would have been different if that had happened but it was unfeasible economically.

It would have been different too, if the US had not merely amended its constitution but written a new one. Now the US has to live with slavery written in but crossed out.

It is very difficult to change a bad society into a good one.

Tom Hickey said...

But given the choice between living in the US, Russia or China.... the US in a heartbeat.

For some but not for others. The people that come to the US have liberal tendencies or are willing to adopt them.

A lot of traditionalists would rather die. There is a good reason that those countries put up firewalls to American culture, which they regard as a throwback to animality, sort of like the early Christians regarded the decadent Romans.

Anyway, most people come here for the economic opportunity in a rich country, not for the politics, although "freedom" does appeal to the oppressed, like the English Puritans that came to New England so they could worship without persecution.

Ironically, some of them persecuted other faiths. New England was Puritan, and Maryland, as one can detect from the name, was Catholic. Pennsylvania was Quaker.

Putting freedom of religion in the Bill of Rights was an afterthought to the initial draft of the US Constitution. These are 10 amendments adopted right out of the gate. revealing perceived flaws in the original document as it was drafted.

Practically speaking it took a long time for minority religions to be accepted, in particular Catholicism by the dominant WASPs.

The Irish and then Italians met similar resistance as the Latins and Asians now.

It's a melting pot and the cooking takes time to blend the flavors.

Tom Hickey said...

The current CEO of Pfizer who was born, raised and educated in Greece, who worked all over Europe, on learning that he was named CEO his exact words were “Only in America!”

This is known as the Horatio Alger myth, as in anyone who has ambition can make it through hard work and persistence.

It is known also as Uncle Tomism or tokenism.

These are integral aspects of the American myth not borne out by sociology and history. The exception doesn't prove the rule.

Tom Hickey said...

The other thing to realize about the US is that originally, and not long ago in terms of the history of civilizations, immigrants to the US found a place free of previous culture and open land for the taking, with the taking only involving some resistance of the natives who had no modern weapons. It was frontier.

In addition, the US was the only major country to emerge from the war unscathed whereas the ROW faced a widespread destruction of population and capital.

The US is resting on its laurels, now that those conditions are coming to a close, with the untitled land no longer in existence and the ROW rising economically. The times they are a-changin'

Peter Pan said...

US gets the risk takers, as do all countries who accept immigration.

Refugee policy is less, shall we say, eugenic.

Tom Hickey said...

US gets the risk takers, as do all countries who accept immigration.

Donald Trump's grandfather was deported by order of the Prince of Bavaria and told never to return. He was exiled and landed in America in one of the quirks of history. Who knows what might have happened if he had remained in Germany. People get the US is lot of ways, like asylum.

Peter Pan said...

Refugee policy is less selective. That's actually a good thing.

Matt Franko said...

They are all USD zombies...

Matt Franko said...

Greek ever watch “Lawrence of Arabia”?

Tom Hickey said...

The Saker's latest post demonstrates the traditionalist position v. the liberal, as expressed through Russia and the US and their clash, as Andrei Martyanov does regularly. And even this is not as extreme as Wahhabism.

Moreover, the Russian World, that is, Russian civilization, is not that different from Western civilization. Their traditionalisms are both basically Christian. The differences mount when considering Islamic civilization, Persian civilization (which not just a subset of Islamic civilization but much older), Indian (Vedic) civilization, and Chinese civilization, which is basically Confucian.

And even in the US and UK, most conservatives are not "woke."

These are red lines for many people, in fact, billions of people.

Peter Pan said...

Live, and let live. That is my red line.

Peter Pan said...

Except for hornets. Kill 'em all.

lastgreek said...

“Greek ever watch “Lawrence of Arabia””

Yes.

“No prisoners! No prisoners!”

Peter Pan said...

Turk is the Greek word for hornet?

S400 said...

Remove the US dollar hegemony from the equation and the US would not have had the attraction for those from other countries doing high level work of some sort in the US.

S400 said...

Remove the US dollar hegemony from the equation and the US would not have had the attraction for those from other countries doing high level work of some sort in the US.

S400 said...

Remove the US dollar hegemony from the equation and the US would not have had the attraction for those from other countries doing high level work of some sort in the US.